Throwing... could you possibly make it any more useless?

[Gorath]

I wholeheartedly  agree with this comment and propose immediate sacking of the current "balancing" team (Fasader, Shik, Urist) and installing a new one, made of renown and respected names like: Team_Jacob, Tears of Destiny and Tzar. Can someone add a poll on this ?

Sweet, then we can all finally play CoD...  owait   

[Gnjus]

Btw has anyone noticed the initials of the current "balancing" team ? S(hik), F(asader), U(rist). All they need is a T to form the STFU team. Any of the 3 recommended guys will do.

[Team_Jacob]

Btw has anyone noticed the initials of the current "balancing" team ? S(hit), F(assaderp), U(rine). All they need is a T to form the STFU team. Any of the 3 recommended guys will do.

Fixed.

[Tears of Destiny]

Sweet, then we can all finally play CoD...  owait   

Eh, if put in charge I would actually give a nerf to some aspects of range, but that is just me. Crossbows still bug the hell out of me for how easy they are to use.

[Team_Jacob]

Eh, if put in charge I would actually give a nerf to some aspects of range, but that is just me. Crossbows still bug the hell out of me for how easy they are to use.

I would nerf the bajeezus out of 0 wpf crossbows, but give a slight reload time buff to high wpf crossbow users.

I would make the warbow pierce again because the slot system already balances it out. An archer could take 3 stacks of arrows and a strong or 2 stacks and a warbow. The longbow would still do more damage and have a faster projectile, but the warbow would be like it used to be.

I would double, possibly triple, the amount of throwing ammo for most throwing weapons (mainly the high end ones).

I would reduce the wpf requirement of throwing to somewhere around 10 (whatever it takes for someone in decent armor with 6 PT to only need 75-80 wpf in throwing and to make PT 8-9 with medium armor possible again)

I would reduce the turning ability on all horses slightly to counteract champion horses being able to turn on a dime.

I would make most shields 0 slot items except for the huscarl and steel, which would be 1 slot items.

The iron staff would get a slight speed and damage buff.

Other than that, I would just do a few minor tweaks on certain weapons to get more flavor in the game (hello Danish, Bec, and Steel Pick).

[Tears of Destiny]

I would nerf the bajeezus out of 0 wpf crossbows, but give a slight reload time buff to high wpf crossbow users.

I would make the warbow pierce again because the slot system already balances it out. An archer could take 3 stacks of arrows and a strong or 2 stacks and a warbow. The longbow would still do more damage and have a faster projectile, but the warbow would be like it used to be.

I would double, possibly triple, the amount of throwing ammo for most throwing weapons (mainly the high end ones).

I would reduce the wpf requirement of throwing to somewhere around 10 (whatever it takes for someone in decent armor with 6 PT to only need 75-80 wpf in throwing and to make PT 8-9 with medium armor possible again)

I would reduce the turning ability on all horses slightly to counteract champion horses being able to turn on a dime.

I would make most shields 0 slot items except for the huscarl and steel, which would be 1 slot items.

The iron staff would get a slight speed and damage buff.

Other than that, I would just do a few minor tweaks on certain weapons to get more flavor in the game (hello Danish, Bec, and Steel Pick).

Well fuck...

Gnjus, this guy has me completely beat.... I don't think I can compete... 

[Dezilagel]

I would nerf the bajeezus out of 0 wpf crossbows, but give a slight reload time buff to high wpf crossbow users.

Agreed, IF xbow heirlooms are also nerfed, mw arbalest + mw steel bolts are just "WTF"

I would make the warbow pierce again because the slot system already balances it out. An archer could take 3 stacks of arrows and a strong or 2 stacks and a warbow. The longbow would still do more damage and have a faster projectile, but the warbow would be like it used to be.

I see no reason, maybe a slight buff for the warbow can be justified, but this is not the way.

I would double, possibly triple, the amount of throwing ammo for most throwing weapons (mainly the high end ones).

No way! Throwing was overnerfed I agree, but tripple ammo stacks? O.o Do you wanna get kited to no end by ppl with 24 frippin' throwing spears?

I would reduce the wpf requirement of throwing to somewhere around 10 (whatever it takes for someone in decent armor with 6 PT to only need 75-80 wpf in throwing and to make PT 8-9 with medium armor possible again)

Yeah because pt 9 hybrids brutalizing anyone without a shield is balanced... That is the state of native now, everyone carries either op throwing or a op bow. Ever tried dedicated 2h there? Hell I tell you.

I would reduce the turning ability on all horses slightly to counteract champion horses being able to turn on a dime.

Agreed, much needed.

I would make most shields 0 slot items except for the huscarl and steel, which would be 1 slot items.

What, why? Do you wanna make throwing op and to "balance" that make everyone a shielder?

The iron staff would get a slight speed and damage buff.

Err... Why? It is already a top-teir duelling pole.

Other than that, I would just do a few minor tweaks on certain weapons to get more flavor in the game (hello Danish, Bec, and Steel Pick).

Danish is fine, othr 2h need a slight buff. Bec is overrated imo, it is super-short, easy to block (even though fast) and a much-needed tincan opener. Steel Pick might be considered a little bit too much, but the real issue with onehanders are the uber-broken schims. Srsly, I'm standing in the duel server as I'm writing this, and 25% of the ppl in here are shielders, and they're all using curved weapons. Fix please!
[/quote]

[Seawied]

Agreed, IF xbow heirlooms are also nerfed, mw arbalest + mw steel bolts are just "WTF"

I see no reason, maybe a slight buff for the warbow can be justified, but this is not the way.

No way! Throwing was overnerfed I agree, but tripple ammo stacks? O.o Do you wanna get kited to no end by ppl with 24 frippin' throwing spears?

Yeah because pt 9 hybrids brutalizing anyone without a shield is balanced... That is the state of native now, everyone carries either op throwing or a op bow. Ever tried dedicated 2h there? Hell I tell you.

Agreed, much needed.

What, why? Do you wanna make throwing op and to "balance" that make everyone a shielder?

Err... Why? It is already a top-teir duelling pole.

Danish is fine, othr 2h need a slight buff. Bec is overrated imo, it is super-short, easy to block (even though fast) and a much-needed tincan opener. Steel Pick might be considered a little bit too much, but the real issue with onehanders are the uber-broken schims. Srsly, I'm standing in the duel server as I'm writing this, and 25% of the ppl in here are shielders, and they're all using curved weapons. Fix please!

I was going to type all this, and then I realized that dezilagel cover it all.

I don't agree with your point about the iron staff being the #1 duel weapon. In fact, I hardly ever see it on the field on a duel. A slight damage buff wouldn't be unwarranted.

Also, scimitars aren't "uber" broken, but their reach is. You need to give yourself an extra foot of space from a scimitar's reach in order to be sure the invisi-reach doesn't get you. I would probably reduce its reach by around 5-6 to compensate for the curve of the blade. Some testing would be needed to ensure the swing matches the model.

Alternatively, a new straighter mesh could be made for the sword. A more Talwarish looking sword might work with Warband's funky (and often broken) hit detection system.



In case you are unfamiliar with the Talwar, here is wikipedia's article on the sword. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talwar

[Team_Jacob]

Agreed, IF xbow heirlooms are also nerfed, mw arbalest + mw steel bolts are just "WTF"

Yarr

I see no reason, maybe a slight buff for the warbow can be justified, but this is not the way.

Because pretty much everyone uses the shortbow because the longbow just sucks.

No way! Throwing was overnerfed I agree, but tripple ammo stacks? O.o Do you wanna get kited to no end by ppl with 24 frippin' throwing spears?

I said double or triple. Throwing lances would be triple to bring them up to 6 instead of 2. I'd probably give around 12 Jarids and 18 throwing spears.

Yeah because pt 9 hybrids brutalizing anyone without a shield is balanced... That is the state of native now, everyone carries either op throwing or a op bow. Ever tried dedicated 2h there? Hell I tell you.

You can't hybrid with PT 9, even if the wpf requirement is drastically lowered. If the wpf requirement is lowered, you MIGHT be able to hybrid if you wear 7 weight or less armor. In which case, there's no reason to complain, because they would get destroyed in one hit or by archers. My intention is to make it so someone can go PT8-9 with medium armor and all wpf in throwing, PT5-7 hybrid with medium to heavy armor, and PT7-8 hybrid with light armor. I'd have to crunch the numbers, but I don't think 10 wpf per PT sounds unreasonable.

Agreed, much needed.

Yarr.

What, why? Do you wanna make throwing op and to "balance" that make everyone a shielder?

This is mainly so that cavalry can use a shield again without sacrificing a slot, throwers can use shields again, and if infantry want to use shields again, they can without sacrificing their pikes/whatever else.

Err... Why? It is already a top-teir duelling pole.

Because it is too slow for how much damage it does. You might as well use a long hafted spiked mace. One of the biggest reasons to use the iron staff was that it was a fast blunt weapon that knocked down decently. It doesn't do enough damage right now IMO. When you have axes that do 40+ cut and are nearly as fast as the iron staff, there is no reason to use the iron staff. Basically, I want to see more diversity, not just long war axe and bec spam.

Danish is fine, othr 2h need a slight buff. Bec is overrated imo, it is super-short, easy to block (even though fast) and a much-needed tincan opener. Steel Pick might be considered a little bit too much, but the real issue with onehanders are the uber-broken schims. Srsly, I'm standing in the duel server as I'm writing this, and 25% of the ppl in here are shielders, and they're all using curved weapons. Fix please!

I wouldn't say 2h needs a buff. They already have range advantage over polearms, which seems silly to me. That reminds me, I'd also remove polearm stun. Shields would be fine if there were more throwers around to break them.

I was kinda just making crap up on the spot, but that's how I feel about the current state of game balance. 2h/pole tincans without a shield should be penalized for not having one. Currently all they have to fear is crossbows because shortbow archers are cut damage. That's why you see so many without shields running around spamming everything. Giving archers a decent pierce weapon again and bringing throwers back into the game might cut down on the amount of 2h/pole users mindlessly rushing into battle and expecting to win due to their armor. Don't get me wrong, I don't want to make 2h/pole without a shield unviable, but I would like to see them actually have to use tactics because they sacrificed having a shield for having more points in PS/IF/Whatever instead of hurr durr, I have heavy armor so I can just run straight at people and ignore ranged.

[FRANK_THE_TANK]

I was playing a dedicated spear chucker and its fun but a complete dick because of the slot issue. I took a hammer along because it doesn't fill a slot point but its basically a massive arse dick around if you don't use ninja stars. The lances are awesome but only having 2 is a pain. The worst thing with them isn't missing... its hitting someone and them not dieing, such a pain. If only you could pull them out of the dead bodies then it would get fun charging over to you pray to confirm the kill and run like hell.

[Warcat]

Lances could be fixed if they had the old amount of damage and were able to pull them out of dead bodies. As for the rest of throwing, they did their usual fix to a problem by using a shotgun for a BB guns job.

[Gurnisson]

Buff iron staff and triple throwing stacks? Is this a joke? Iron staff is already very strong. Look at long spiked club instead.

[dontgothere]

Seawied - hi! 

It was not a "moral" thing about it being good that there is more melee now, but I just remember that back when I first started playing CRPG (when long maul was called boulder-on-a-stick and the XP system was according to how many people died near you) the throwing spam was a bit out of hand - and I think it's good that it's not that way any more.  I agree with you that the nerfing has gone too far though, obviously.    (The PT*14 wpf requirement really sucked for me because my build is 13 PT - my character is crippled until I start over, and he's barely level 30.  Sigh.)

Maybe you're right and 10*PT is better - I think it's definitely worth a try for one patch, just to see. 

I don't think my ideas are better than the others in this thread, but unfortunately despite all the views we have to work with, it looks like we haven't a hope of resolving this because of communication issues with the balancing team.

I really don't get why we can't just have a normal discussion?  Why does the balancing team have to insult us?  Why can't we just deal with numbers, facts, etc?  I would really like to hear what the balancing team has to say if they could just make a reasonable case and propose some compromises.  That's the way to fix this and it really should be part of their job...

I don't think it's going to be very constructive to try to get the balance team in trouble, if you guys are serious when you talk about that...  There are problems with the mod, and they could be handled better - but just like how throwers wish the devs would communicate more with us, I'm sure the devs would like to see people bashing them less.  It's not going to make them feel like posting here if people are getting angry at them.     And making fun of their initials is pretty immature.

cant we all just get along


Gorath - I've been playing CRPG with you for a long time and I think you've got a good understanding of the mod's settings, but I'm just not sure what the point you're making is because of all the arguing going on.  Could you sum-up what the problem you see with the suggestions here is?  I'm sure that people could understand your side of the argument if it were made clearer.    If you don't mind me asking you a specific question, could you please explain what it is about throwing that's more frustrating to you than archery?
I always thought that the purpose of high-tier throwing weapons and dedicated (or at least heavy) throwers was to counter the high-armor, high-IF, low-agi tincans, who would be slow and vulnerable.  Do you think that's not how it should work?

Just trying to understand all sides here.   

p.s. love your signature picture

[Gorath]

Gorath - I've been playing CRPG with you for a long time and I think you've got a good understanding of the mod's settings, but I'm just not sure what the point you're making is because of all the arguing going on.  Could you sum-up what the problem you see with the suggestions here is?  I'm sure that people could understand your side of the argument if it were made clearer.    If you don't mind me asking you a specific question, could you please explain what it is about throwing that's more frustrating to you than archery?
I always thought that the purpose of high-tier throwing weapons and dedicated (or at least heavy) throwers was to counter the high-armor, high-IF, low-agi tincans, who would be slow and vulnerable.  Do you think that's not how it should work?

Just trying to understand all sides here.   

p.s. love your signature picture

It's really simple.

Most kiteable ranged weapons:  Thrown
Most versatile ranged weapons:  Thrown  (shield breaking, high pierce damage, spammable, etc)
Most capable of surviving melee:  Thrown.  Pressing x to instantly start blocking is much faster than switching TO a melee weapon from your bow/xbow

The only thing I disagree with as far as the suggestions is the increase in ammo or decrease in slots.  Purely because if the game is being balanced around logic in that I can't carry a 2her, pike, shield and great maul because it doesn't make sense then throwers shouldn't get to carry 12 throwing axes, or 8 throwing lances, etc because it doesn't make sense.  Regardless of what the internet says, your butthole is NOT a bag of holding.  Now the thrown weapons that have quivers and shit, I'm cool with those.  They make sense (darts, wardarts, javelins) or smaller weapons (shuriken, daggers).  Those all make sense to a point about their ammo.

The wpf requirement is lame, I agree.  I hate those kind of artificial restrictions.  You should be able to use anything badly (1wpf).  Them having high damage?  Ok, sure, I guess so.  I still think ANY ranged weapon 1-2 shotting anyone in med armor or higher with anything other than a HEAD shot is bad gameplay, but meh.

Basically that's it.

[Team_Jacob]

It's really simple.

Most kiteable ranged weapons:  Archery (throwing requires too much str to have high athletics)
Most versatile ranged weapons:  Crossbow  (shield piercing, high pierce damage, high ammo, no wpf requirement, extremely accurate with wpf, etc)
Most capable of surviving melee:  Crossbow  (actually has melee wpf and high PS)

Fixed.

I'm totally fine with "realistic" ammo counts if you give me infinite stones to throw, let me throw any weapon I can pick up on the ground, let me take my weapons out of dead bodies, and let me carry 50+ shurikens in a bag and still carry a melee weapon and a shield. Hey, it's realistic. I could easily carry 50+ shurikens in a bag, a sheathed sword, a shield, and still be able to use them all fairly easily. Oh and headshots should ignore armor because people usually didn't fight with visors down and if they did, they would suffer a huge SA reduction, which isn't modeled in game. I would also like for shields, other than the wooden/leather ones, to not be able to be held up for the entire round. There should be a stamina bar for how far you can run, how long you can hold your shield up, and how many times you can swing. Heavier armor, shields, and weapons, cause your stamina bar to be smaller or deplete faster.