Throwing... could you possibly make it any more useless?

[Paul]

It's not 14 wpf per point in PT anymore. A PT 10 thrower is perfectly possible at level 30. I have a level 25 pure thrower with 9 PT + 123 throwing wpf and I don't get the PT reduced message when I'm playing in light armor.

[Cheap_Shot]

It would help if suggestions weren't "I want to have 16 ammo axes/javs/whatever"

Ok, here I am. I have never suggested anything to that regard, and I have been the most vocal player on this subject. I have explored every angle of the throwing situation to the best of my ability and only made suggestions I feel would be logical, balanced, and fair. Every step of the way I have been careful to avoid suggesting anything that would overpower throwing again. At any point I come across a suggestion that might even possibly lead to throwing having an unfair advantage, I have offered counter balance solutions, as well as offered it to general discussion. I have been making every effort to meet half way and present information clearly and intelligently. You aren't trying. The above quote states that loud and clear. You say it would help to recieve suggestions that aren't "add a million ammo"...? Great. That means I've been trying to help you in the exact form you want for weeks. My time and input has been free for the taking this whole time. Goright ahead and make use of it. It will, and has been, my absolute pleasure to assist you with this, as long as we see some balanced change.

[Team_Jacob]

It's not 14 wpf per point in PT anymore. A PT 10 thrower is perfectly possible at level 30. I have a level 25 pure thrower with 9 PT + 123 throwing wpf and I don't get the PT reduced message when I'm playing in light armor.

Could you please tell us what it is. It's completely impossible to know what builds are and aren't possible without knowing such things. 9*14 = 126, which is pretty close to 123. It may not be 14 per, but it seems like it is somewhere near that. So a PT10 thrower with 0 PS and 0 athletics at lvl 30 might BARELY be possible (apologies to fasader if that is the case), but my other points still stand. It still requires all of your points, requires no armor, no athletics, no shield, and no melee weapon. You pretty much turn into an archer, but only have enough ammo to kill 1-3 people tops whereas an archer can kill upwards of 8-10 per life.

If the objective is to make pure throwing viable, then ammo has to be made reasonable. 16 axes, if anything, isn't even enough for a pure thrower when compared to an archer. Potential damage needs to be similar for archers, throwers, and crossbowmen if a pure thrower is to be viable.

If the objective is to make throwing a secondary, then the wpf and PT requirements need to be severely cut, slots need to be a little forgiving, and/or crossbows need to be neutered like throwing was. There is absolutely NO reason to take throwing over a crossbow as a melee character because the crossbow does the same or more damage than throwing, has way more ammo, and requires zero point investment.

The days of a shielded and armored thrower are over. You can't use a shield, you can't wear armor, and you are neutered in melee if you are a thrower. Damage is perfectly fine, yes even throwing lances. Ammo just needs to be doubled or, more reasonably, tripled for most cases.

[okiN]

It's PT*10 now, AFAIK. It's definitely possible, and you can wear some armour as well.

[Morgan_Freeman]

I only read up to the second page and a developer said they were implementing changes next patch

stop arguing nerds

[Team_Jacob]

I only read up to the second page and a developer said they were implementing changes next patch

stop arguing nerds

Then you need to keep reading because the only change mentioned thus far is this one.

You forgot 6 loom points and that the lances are getting removed.

[Native_ATS]

It's not 14 wpf per point in PT anymore. A PT 10 thrower is perfectly possible at level 30. I have a level 25 pure thrower with 9 PT + 123 throwing wpf and I don't get the PT reduced message when I'm playing in light armor.

the point is throwers have to do alot to throw at avg damg. I am 100% sure your throwing build is unplayable by most people, and you are useless in battle, strat,and in segie.
Idk know why you have to do so  much to throw, jump though hoops and bust your ass to throw, when in the end it would be easyer to just use the op xbow.
If xbow isnt skilled enough for you and you want to free better about using range then the bow is always a great pick.
bows can 2 shot people when you 100% bowmen
xbows can 2 shot you when you are 0% xbowmen lol
Throwing and killing with 2 lances is silly, but when an xbow dose it, while thats fine.
i would like for throwing to be evened out as much as anyone. I been throwing since this game came out and i seen it though. I still throw and it is super silly that i get 1-2 shot by silly weapons
flamberg all str builds
spiked mace of op (1slot 30b 100speed? and nockdown)
pick of the my old friends (30p 100speed 1slot)
And the way OP xbow

Some times i feel like if you guys can find anyway to make throwing seem ok, then it is fine to you. "Oh well i made a pure thrower and i got 123wpf and am almost naked and i can throw 2 lances and get like 1-2 kills max"
then am boned when strat comes out i wont be able to fight at all. No one buys throwing for start, not cost effective.
ugh i feel like alot of people are leaning to the extreme when they talk about builds and stuff. I am talking about avg builds

avg bow build
 at 27str and 12agi you get 9pd,4wm,4ath,4ride,2Ha
you can 2 shot people with the longbow but you get 40ammo

avg xbow build
24str 12agi
you can get 8ps,8if,4wm,4ath,4ride,1ha
you can 2 shot people but you get 30ammo

avg throwing build
24,12
8ps,8pt,2sheild,4ride,4ath
you can 2 shot people  with 2 lances... but you only get 2ammo

[Lichen]

I made a pure strength thrower and I definitely think throwers should have 1 shot kill capability if enough pt is invested plus using throwing lances. Though if lances are to be removed I guess that ability will be mostly gone except for weaker foes. A long fairly heavy spear/lance should be capable of one shotting. Melee can one hit so why not throwers? Throwers have limited chances too unlike melee. As far as the 'proficiency is too low' I really don't know what that affects exactly other than accuracy (damage too?). The accuracy penalty is fine with me but if it's also damage reduction too I don't agree with that.

[Native_ATS]

soo if they do get removed are the people who heirloomed lances gonna get a diff weapon or just loomed point or what lol
i rather they dont get removed 
also i belive if you dont have enough wpf you dont get weried purple text, and your aim/damg is lowwered

[Cheap_Shot]

I made a pure strength thrower and I definitely think throwers should have 1 shot kill capability if enough pt is invested plus using throwing lances. Though if lances are to be removed I guess that ability will be mostly gone except for weaker foes. A long fairly heavy spear/lance should be capable of one shotting. Melee can one hit so why not throwers? Throwers have limited chances too unlike melee. As far as the 'proficiency is too low' I really don't know what that affects exactly other than accuracy (damage too?). The accuracy penalty is fine with me but if it's also damage reduction too I don't agree with that.

From what I understand, the message means that due to either not having enough wpf, or due to armor reducing it below a set minimum per level of PT, you are not getting the benefit of the amount of PT levels purchased. So yes, damage reduction because say you have 9 levels of PT and you get that message, it means you are operating with a PT lower then 9. Because we don't know the actual formula, there's no real way to know by how much it is being effected, how much armor you can wear, and how to build your character to avoid it.

I do agree when you say that there's no reason throwing shouldn't be able to one shot people too. Most builds at high level can anyway. Two handers and poles can sure as hell one shot most everyone at high levels, so I don't understand when people shout "You're just upset that you don't have your 1 hit kill easymode anymore", when they log on and one hit kill everything with their bec or maul or whatever the current flavour is.

The fact is, as a thrower, it's more important to do that high amount of damage in one hit, because most of the time if it fails to kill your target, you are pretty much dead. At high levels of melee you can fall back and let your armor take a hit, or manual block your way out if you don't kill when you need to. For throwers? Well, you're screwed lets face it. Maybe your teammates could save you if anyone actually knew what teamwork is, instead of just trying to be lone wolf death tanks.

It's PT*10 now, AFAIK. It's definitely possible, and you can wear some armour as well.

For sure this is untrue. I wouldn't have had to retire and rebuild my thrower if this were the case. Perhaps this is what it was at two patches ago before the overnerfing, but not now.

Also there are more builds to consider then just lance throwers. It seems wrong to remove throwings "best" (perhaps once) weapon after the avalanche of nerfs already heaped on, but lets not get so focused on them that it makes it sound like we want throwing balanced around lance tossing. Throwing needs many general improvements, not heavy stack increases. Making throwing more like archery and crossbowing isn't the solution. If you want comparable ammo, just get a bloody crossbow already, they're great. At most throwing only needs minor ammo increase. The real problems lie in the point investment vs effectiveness.

A str melee build for instance has no such restriction for getting powerstrike, making high strength melee fighters 1 hit kill machines with little drawback, and full option to split into other skills and wear as much armor as needed. That's fine. The higher level you get the more you should be able to diversify and be overall more effective. They can even go above PS 10 since the cap was raised somewhere around 15-16. More points = better is how it should be.

 Throwing has been assigned a limiting system which requires agi, even though unlike archery, it's related skills are all strength based. That's the major problem. The more you strive for high level throwing, the more you handicap your character, unlike every other build which gets better with more investment. That's the problem that needs to be fixed. Right now with throwing, More points =/= better. The more points you put in, the more you are fighting against tricky and unexplained limiting systems that do not follow the same mechanics as the rest of the game. That's what needs to change more then anything.

[Team_Jacob]

Not enough wpf = it reduces your actual PT skill, makes aiming harder, and makes you unable to pick up your misses (because your PT is too low I think). I think the formula is similar for how archer wpf/PD is reduced due to armor.

[Casimir]

We all know shit is wrong when pebble pusher has to use axes or spears! I mean FFS guys fix this shit already!

[Gorath]

Firstly, 4 axes per slot would not be ridiculous.

It would be just as rediculous as sheathing a pike in your back pocket.  Or carrying a danish greatsword + great axe + morning star + barmace on your 2her.  Or a great lance + heavy lance + shield + 1her on your cav.

Carrying 16 throwing axes in your ass to smuggle them across the border huh?  Nope, can't see it.  It's just silly and stupid.

[Team_Jacob]

It would be just as rediculous as sheathing a pike in your back pocket.  Or carrying a danish greatsword + great axe + morning star + barmace on your 2her.  Or a great lance + heavy lance + shield + 1her on your cav.

Carrying 16 throwing axes in your ass to smuggle them across the border huh?  Nope, can't see it.  It's just silly and stupid.

I hate to break it to you, but even though video games are your life, it doesn't mean that they should be based entirely around realism. Even so:

A person surviving an extremely heavy weapon strike to the head? A person still able to use their arms or walk after being hit in the limbs with a giant club? A person surviving a lance thrust to their body from a cavalryman? A person able to run extremely fast and never tire while wearing a ton of heavy armor? A person able to have full SA with visor down on their helmet?

The dunce cap has been passed from fasader to you for the time being.

[Gorath]

I hate to break it to you, but even though video games are your life, it doesn't mean that they should be based entirely around realism.

I hate to break it to you, but the game was already modified with the slot system and unsheathable tags in order to avoid this silliness that you propose because in this case, realism = good model for the game.

Throwing should apply just like all the melee weapons do.  I can't carry 4 2h'd weapons, sheath a pike or carry 3 scrubscarl shields + a bastard sword.  You can't carry 16 throwing axes.  Both ideas are silly and should be prevented like the devs have done already.


The dunce cap has, and will remain, firmly upon your own head.