Throwing... could you possibly make it any more useless?

[Team_Jacob]

If having a 153 wpf in throwing and (most of the time) spawning with nothing but throwing axes doesn't make him a pure thrower then i really cant think of anything that could ever make him one.

Again: yes, Pebbles us useless but only because he chooses to be, if he played a bit more serious he'd be far from useless but that is his own freedom of choice, correct ? The thing he plays like that doesn't make all the dedicated throwers with a bit more serious approach THAT bad, its just him and his trolling approach. If he actually cared he would easily be the good old Pebbles we all know.
Last but not the least: the bolded part - I don't know why you imply that i would like something or not, its not about me, we are talking about throwing here. Pebbles is useless cause he wants to be but all people who are whining and crying about throwing here are useless cause they just plain suck and they cant do anything about it so they want throwing buffed as it was.
Throwing atm is much more realistic and balanced then ever before. Go check Vikingr, there you get 2 axes or 2 javelins, you don't get to carry 12 axes/spears/javelins/darts/whatever, with a secondary mod so you can kick some additional asses with your last weapon. That's how it should be, throwing weapons were mostly secondary, used as line & shield breakers. Throwers were never a one-man-armies like in cRPG before the last patch.

The real life argument really has to stop. It is completely retarded and has no place when talking about game balance. If someone spends half or more of their points on a weapon they should get more ammo than 4-8. Think about that for a second. Imagine if arrows and bolts came in stacks of 5. There would be a huge shitstorm. Now if you want to go the opposite way and give throwers less ammo for whatever reason then they either need to basically be guaranteed to kill anything they hit (I've seen destriers survive headshots from them and still be running around with a huge lance in their head) or they need to require 0 point investment like crossbows. The problem is that the patch took both approaches due to poor foresight from the developers. Something needs to be done when you spend half or more of your points on a weapon and you barely get enough to kill 2 people (less if they are armored).

[Team_Jacob]

Power throw is currently at 10% damage increase per level. Throwing lances deal 56p when thrown. Steel bolts+ Arbalest deal 87 damage right off the bat. This means that the arbalest deals 55% more damage than throwing lances before skills are factored in. Once you factor in wpf, and PT requirement, throwing lances deal more damage on equip than the arbalest.

I agree 100% that its bullshit that a weapon as strong as the Arbalest can be used with no weapon investment, and that the overall accuracy of xbows is ridiculously high. I also agree that crossbows as a whole are much more overpowered than throwing ever was... But throwing lances do deal more damage than an arbalest.This is coming from someone who uses a crossbow hybrid and one of those lame-ass shot gunners with 0 wpf in xbow. Yes. I'm THAT GUY. Commence tomato slinging now.

Let's assume a reasonable build of PT7 and sufficient wpf to cover the requirements (somewhere around 100-110). This is a crapload of points to invest and wpf really doesn't add a ton of damage to the weapon if the calculation for melee is similar to throwing (roughly 100 wpf required just to get the full damage from the weapon). PT 7 = +70% damage. 56*1.7=95.2, which you're right, does more damage than the stock arbalest. But now let's look at heirlooms.

Lances: 60*1.7=102

Arbalest: 87+13=100

That's pretty damn close, also 95 and 87 aren't too far off to begin with. Consider the fact that the arbalest gets 10-15x more ammo per loadout and requires 0 point investment and it becomes blatantly obvious, unless you are a moron, that something is wrong with crossbows, throwing, or both. Why in the hell are people afraid of throwing lances doing a ton of damage when the arbalest does basically the EXACT same damage. If you see throwing lances coming at you, you can be sure that they have a very watered down build when it comes to melee, and if they throw 2 at you, they are completely unarmed except for a 0 slot hammer.

[Templar_Ratigan]

^That's fair enough Gnjus, although I have to say the part about throwers not being one man armies, neither is any other type of fighting style during the era, maybe there were strong warriors, but they all fought as part of a single army.

The point is, I wouldnt start applying real world logic and historical accuracies, to a computer game. Of course there has to be a certain relativity in terms of realism, but frankly this whole 'realistic and balanced' gibberish is what has spelled the death for many a game down the ages.

ps; minor point on pebble again is ive seen him loads of times with other weapons besides stones, still does terribly. As for not caring, you are kidding right? Ive never met a more whiny player: "oh boo hoo that should have killed....what the fuck I should have won that, that guy is cheating blah blah blah" he never shuts up in ts.  He cares alright oh yes, he cares more than 95% of the CRPG community, you just think he's easy going because you never see much of it in game.

[Seawied]

Let's assume a reasonable build of PT7 and sufficient wpf to cover the requirements (somewhere around 100-110). This is a crapload of points to invest and wpf really doesn't add a ton of damage to the weapon if the calculation for melee is similar to throwing (roughly 100 wpf required just to get the full damage from the weapon). PT 7 = +70% damage. 56*1.7=95.2, which you're right, does more damage than the stock arbalest. But now let's look at heirlooms.

Lances: 60*1.7=102

Arbalest: 87+13=100

That's pretty damn close, also 95 and 87 aren't too far off to begin with. Consider the fact that the arbalest gets 10-15x more ammo per loadout and requires 0 point investment and it becomes blatantly obvious, unless you are a moron, that something is wrong with crossbows, throwing, or both. Why in the hell are people afraid of throwing lances doing a ton of damage when the arbalest does basically the EXACT same damage. If you see throwing lances coming at you, you can be sure that they have a very watered down build when it comes to melee, and if they throw 2 at you, they are completely unarmed except for a 0 slot hammer.

your numbers are still off. You didn't factor in WPF

I buy your argument, but throwing lances still have higher point-blank damage than arbalests.

[Fasader]

You forgot 6 loom points and that the lances are getting removed.

[Team_Jacob]

your numbers are still off. You didn't factor in WPF

I buy your argument, but throwing lances still have higher point-blank damage than arbalests.

I did factor in wpf.

You forgot 6 loom points and that the lances are getting removed.

Granted, for the same loom points it would be 95 instead of 100 due to losing the 3x loomed bolts. The ridiculous point requirement disparity is still there though.

As for your other point...You are going to remove the one and only option throwers had to defend themselves in melee (the throwing lance). Throwers can't use shields or real melee weapons due to slot limitations. Unless the plan is to triple the current ammo count for throwers, this isn't going to fix anything. What is the reasoning for removing throwing lances? If it is damage per shot then the arbalest needs to be removed as well. Zero point requirement crossbows doing ridiculous damage and having tons of ammo is completely fine, but someone having similar damage with extreme point requirements and a whopping two ammo is completely unbalanced. I have yet to see any logical reasoning from ANYONE as to why the throwing lances are OP vs. the arbalest.

Thank god I switched to cavalry, my faith in throwing ever being a reasonable spec again is completely gone.

[Cheap_Shot]

You forgot 6 loom points and that the lances are getting removed.

He didn't forget that second part. No one knows squat about what you're actually doing. You mentioned that possibility, in a tiny list of strictly item changes you posted weeks ago, saying it was open to modification. Am I to take it that it never actually was a matter of discussion, even though you posted in the game discussion forum? It would be very helpful to know what is going on. I've been calmly and intelligently discussing this for weeks, doing my best to make imformed and logical suggestions. I've shared my experience and even used my artistic talents to entertain and draw attention to the topic. Please don't tell me it was wasted effort, and you never actually considered player input or drew information from the active discussion. That would be incredible in the most negative sense possible.

[Native_ATS]

You forgot 6 loom points and that the lances are getting removed.

you could always just lower the throw damg, and up the melee for it like you guys have befor
i been testing the heirloomed lances i got and i do enjoy the upped stats for melee.
Anyways as it gose for throwing, it takes 2-3 lances to kill a guy at 8pt, and i cant get to 9pt due to the wpf cost
but at 7pt one can still have about 80 wpf in pol-arm and fight people off id need be.

Is the throwing lance fine? No
you can carry 2 lances into battle for the cost of 4 slots. Those 2 lances can kill 1 man, or MAYBE a pony
they cost a ton to fix and it is super sad when you hit a pony in the head with a lance and watch him ride away with 8k worth of you hard earned money 
A lvl 1 sheild will take your lance leaving you with nothing left. When you kill a man or if the lances hit something that can be damg your lances is gone.
Idk anyother weapon that is in so much need of wpf. If you dont have enough wpf you cant even pick up you weapon... but am glad thats there to stop broken builds.(not fair that its only throwers tho... i say share our pain with 2handers and all other classes)
I would be fine with this lances if i had 2 per stack...even if they didnt have so much throw power, but because you only get like 80wpf in melee they are pretty bad

Fasader, I'm sure if you would tell us what you dont like about throwing, or ask for ideas on how to rework it a lot of throwers would try to help.
I know there are like no thrower build devs so throwing might be seen in a diff light to you guys.


Side note, the only other weapon that got removed was LOC, and the LoonyToon AXE.
The LOC was wiped but i know the Toonaxe was remade into a new weapon. I had the toon axe and it went form a loomed toonaxe to a loomed swissblade
so i wounder what will happen to my heirloomed lances lol

[Fasader]

It would help if suggestions weren't "I want to have 16 ammo axes/javs/whatever".

I played a 10 PT lance thrower for a generation and it was kind of silly 1-2 shotting anything, Paul has some thrower too iirc. So, yes, devs have thrower builds.

[Paul]

I got 2 thrower. One pure with 0 melee and a more "realistic" throwing/1h hybrid. Never brought myself to roll a mounted thrower, partly because of TW physics fail.

I recently played with the thrower hybrid using a layout "6 heavy throwing axes plus shield" and it felt fine. However, throwing gets buffed in the upcoming patch.

[Native_ATS]

It would help if suggestions weren't "I want to have 16 ammo axes/javs/whatever".

I played a 10 PT lance thrower for a generation and it was kind of silly 1-2 shotting anything, Paul has some thrower too iirc. So, yes, devs have thrower builds.

i cant stop form people posting random thoughts, but there are a few of us that are trying to help.
10pt is a thing of the past and it was never a good idea.
1-2 shotting with the most str reg weapon seemed ok, but it has been fixxed. It is easyer to just use a 2 hander and swing 1-2 times then to throw the new throwing lances.
anyways the lances can kill people now in about 2-3 hits but you only get 2 so it seems a tad better. I tend to throw to kill cav but with 2 lances i cant do much cav killing lol
Maybe to fix the silly i would say maybe drop the throw damg to around 50p but let us have 2-3 per stack. That or bring back that 3x loomed gives you more lances 

i am not for the 1 shot kill weapons. i do like the slow and heavy handed game play stly. i ask that you guys try to find a diff way to fix this because the throwing lances is the only throwing weapon beside the throwing axe that can be used as a melee weapon.

[Native_ATS]

oh also, throwing is already a point heavy classs.
you can be a bowmen and spend all you points into pd and be fine
same for 2 handers, you get ps and your good to go
xbows need nothing
1 handers need/should get sheild and ps
 throwers need pt and wm or they cant throw, PT=str  WM=agi
an avg build i do for throwing is 24str,12agi. 8ps,8pt,4WM,4Ride, 2sheild,2ath  (i dont even use sheild due to the low ammo of lances... and it takes 2 lances to kill, takes 3 for most people)

[Tears of Destiny]

bowmen need wm too wtf...

[Team_Jacob]

It would help if suggestions weren't "I want to have 16 ammo axes/javs/whatever".

I played a 10 PT lance thrower for a generation and it was kind of silly 1-2 shotting anything, Paul has some thrower too iirc. So, yes, devs have thrower builds.

Comments like this are why I personally feel that you are not qualified to be balancing the game. Bold statement, sure, and I'm sure that I will be punished for it, but I really don't think you should be touching game balance at all.

Firstly, 4 axes per slot would not be ridiculous. That would be enough to kill 2-3 horses, 4-5 peasants, OR 1-2 people in plate. That assumes that you hit on most of your throws, which doesn't easily happen. Compare that to an archer and that's still less potential damage. This also means that you have 0 slots for a shield or melee weapon.

Secondly, you cannot have a 10PT thrower in the current game unless you are higher than level 30, put literally all of your points into power throw and wm, and wear armor that doesn't cause a weight penalty. At level 30 you can have 10 PT and 4 WM with no other skillpoints and you still can only get 139 wpf in throwing (140 is required at 10PT). So, yes, if you use a level 32-35 build with 0 power strike, 0 ironflesh, 0 athletics, no armor, and all of your wpf into throwing, you can have a 10 PT thrower. Guess what? You kill at MOST, 2 people per round with your 2 OMGWTFBBQ throwing lances. That is, assuming you hit them (not likely with the reticule size of lances), assuming the target dies to 1 (again, not always the case), and assuming an archer or someone with a random crossbow doesn't 1 shot you due to not having any armor or a shield. Yes, god forbid someone who has an EXTREME build can get a 2:1 K/D ratio if the stars align during a solar eclipse.

Seriously fasader, please try a throwing build, you obviously haven't. I completely call bullshit on your PT10 thrower and/or you are using a level 32+ build, which is completely unrealistic as most players will be in the 27-31 range. Take a level 30 with a pure throwing build and if you can come out even just 1:1, I will be impressed. Archers, melee, and crossbowmen have the ammo and armor to easily go 3-4:1, a thrower, even if he hits every shot, can barely go 2:1. Compare that to a level NINE, let me say that again, a LEVEL NINE, character with an arbalest, and the guy with the arbalest can EASILY go 2:1 or more (I have done it personally).

[Seawied]

I did factor in wpf.

by Urist's numbers, wpf (for melee at least) will add around 15% more damage, which is significant. Xbows don't have this benefit... which is partially why you can use zero wpf in them and do well.