Throwing... could you possibly make it any more useless?

[Tears of Destiny]

I am simply giving my less biased views on the situation. I say less biased because I have tried pretty much every build there is, but I'm still a little biased because pure throwing is one of the easiest playstyle's ever imo.  Perhaps you should try playing a build which requires skill before bashing other people on the forums.  Even archery would be a skill-based improvement.

*I can throw that sentance right back at you and it's just as true*

Amusingly as of last night I saw him playing a lowbie archer using a long bow on NA 80 man Siege.

[Team_Jacob]

Amusingly as of last night I saw him playing a lowbie archer using a long bow on NA 80 man Siege.

Yarr, I was playing a mid-high level polearm user before that. I fail to see why throwing requires less skill than archery or crossbow. It has less accuracy, the same damage (less vs. crossbow), and if you miss you're more screwed because you're most likely really close to the target. It used to be that you could fall back on your shield if you missed but you can't afford to give up the slot for a shield now.

[Lichen]

the light crossbow becomes a machine gun with high wpf and it still does similar damage to a dedicated thrower.

What about if you have high powerthrow?

Anyone who thinks that throwing doesn't need some sort of buff is completely nuts. I completely fail to see how giving a dedicated thrower similar potential damage per loadout to a crossbow user or archer makes them overpowered.

I think the devs should run some number calculations (if they haven't already) and tally up theoretical total damage potential of a pure strength thrower and crossbowman and archer. But that's not the whole equation because each style has different advantages and drawbacks which affect balance too.

Assuming you completely neglect a melee weapon you can take 32 throwing daggers for pitifully low cut damage, 16 war darts for pitifully low pierce damage, 8 heavy throwing axes for good cut damage, 8 throwing spears for good pierce damage, or 2 throwing lances for amazing pierce damage. Compare this to the same situation with bows and crossbows where an archer can take 45 (neglecting heirlooms) arrows for good cut damage or 30 arrows for good pierce damage or really good cut damage and a crossbowman can take the same numbers respectively.

So let's say throwers were given 45 francescas.....30 javelins etc. That would be ridiculously overpowered. Throwers would dominate (half or more) of the other team. It would be ridiculous.

[Cheap_Shot]

Why is anyone still arguing about this? There was even a public poll that over 1000 players voted on, and even with most people casting biased votes, the most agreed upon option overall was that throwing was made terrible and that it should be made good again.

I honestly don't understand everyone's attitudes. This isn't some dick waving sub forum, it's for legitimate discussion about game balance.

SpeedyBanana, there is already a regular thread for throwing balance discussion, as well as another thread almost Identical to this one. Starting threads like these just makes us look like whiners and doesn't help any. If you really want to get the proper changes to throwing made, this is the worst thing you can do.

Fasader, common man. I don't know you, but please tell me you're better then that. Sure Native called you out, but you're supposed to be on the dev team. There's a lot of players here who would really like to see someone higher up discussing this seriously. The outright negative sarcasm gives your entire team a bad image. Arguably not a big deal since this is just an unofficial mod, but I imagine that chadz wants to keep people playing, and donating, so professionalism really couldn't hurt once in a while.

Overall, there is very little faith in the game balancing team. Everyone I speak with makes jokes about cRPGs patches. Things like "the devs just throw darts at a board to decide what to nerf" or "Whatever two handers whine about the most". There's dozens more. I'd like to imagine those jokes are unfounded but I've been trying for weeks to get any dev to come discuss the throwing problem seriously, and I've all but given up. There may not be many players who know what they're talking about, but some actual civil discussion could go a long way. No muscle flexing. No dick waving. Discussion.

Can we give that a shot? 

[Team_Jacob]

Why is anyone still arguing about this? There was even a public poll that over 1000 players voted on, and even with most people casting biased votes, the most agreed upon option overall was that throwing was made terrible and that it should be made good again.

I honestly don't understand everyone's attitudes. This isn't some dick waving sub forum, it's for legitimate discussion about game balance.

SpeedyBanana, there is already a regular thread for throwing balance discussion, as well as another thread almost Identical to this one. Starting threads like these just makes us look like whiners and doesn't help any. If you really want to get the proper changes to throwing made, this is the worst thing you can do.

Fasader, common man. I don't know you, but please tell me you're better then that. Sure Native called you out, but you're supposed to be on the dev team. There's a lot of players here who would really like to see someone higher up discussing this seriously. The outright negative sarcasm gives your entire team a bad image. Arguably not a big deal since this is just an unofficial mod, but I imagine that chadz wants to keep people playing, and donating, so professionalism really couldn't hurt once in a while.

Overall, there is very little faith in the game balancing team. Everyone I speak with makes jokes about cRPGs patches. Things like "the devs just throw darts at a board to decide what to nerf" or "Whatever two handers whine about the most". There's dozens more. I'd like to imagine those jokes are unfounded but I've been trying for weeks to get any dev to come discuss the throwing problem seriously, and I've all but given up. There may not be many players who know what they're talking about, but some actual civil discussion could go a long way. No muscle flexing. No dick waving. Discussion.

Can we give that a shot? 

I have tried, but it just ends up with people who are completely biased and don't want to talk about the issues and just want to call anyone who doesn't agree with them or play their spec a whiner. It is pointless. It is akin to a Republican and a Democrat trying to convince one another to switch parties. I have given reasonable arguments for why throwers should get more ammo, but for some reason people still see throwing as something that requires no skill or point investment, which is completely false. Everything in this game requires skill, archery, crossbow, melee, cavalry, and yes, throwing. You have to get very very close to be semi accurate with throwing and if you miss, you're probably gonna take a flamberge or bec to the face and die. You can't really take a shield very easily as a thrower anymore due to slot restrictions unless you want to have 2-6 ammo to throw at people when half of your spec is for throwing. This means that archers and crossbowmen are much more deadly than they used to be as a thrower.

Again, I would love to have a discussion about the problems and I have already stated my issues and concerns on the matter, but it seems like it is completely pointless. Comments from Fasader here and in IRC make me question why this forum even exists.

[Danath]

CBF reading the whole thread but I'm a half 1h half thrower build. (100wpp in 1H, 100wpp in throwing)

And my char is now, for lack of a better word, disabled.

I had 3 heavy throwing axe slots each with 4 axes = 12 throwing axes.

Now I can only hold 6 throwing axes (3 slots x 2).

Everytime I try to put on decent armor I get the throwing prof too low message making my damage weak and aim awful.

Almost pointless this char now. It's like an ogre type of char "I have str but i cant run (stats went to Power THrow) or even throw properly and I can only use short-range 1h weapons - herpa derpa"... my char now fails nicely (this is my alt char)

And I can't just "undo my stats" and stop him being a thrower. grr.

[Gnjus]

You are kidding right? Ccoin is a hybrid and pebble is one of the worst players ive ever seen, ive never seen him with a positive score and he often tk's his own team. Wouldnt mind if was good at stoning people but.......

Well yeah, if having 153 wpf in throwing is a hybrid then I'm probably kidding. Also, Coin was probably just lucky with all those throwing axes each time i spectated him or saw him killing someone down in the casualties report, he headshots and 1-shots so many people with nothing but luck & experience in throwing.
As for Pebble - he doesn't suck at all actually, the only reason he gets bad scores is because he doesn't really play too serious, often wonders alone in his blue shirt and pants with no melee weapon equipped and spams rocks. If he took a little more serious approach he'd surely be up there with Coin but he prefers being useless and having fun, nothing wrong with that.

[Danath]

One last thing: throwing has definitely been dumbed down a wee bit too much if it wasn't clear from above.

Sure it crippled my half thrower class in two ways, far less stuff to throw, and annoying WPP too low messages (further making it useless if I wear armor).

Middle ground solution: Add more items to throw again, keep the WPP message. That will let throwers be throwers (even the half-ones like me) and stop them having uber armor. Middleground Win for everyone.

I dont want CRPG to become another "lets all be one class" because of endless whinges who should not be allowed an opinion otherwise we might as well go diablo style (warrior / mage / archer) no customization, the end. HA overpowered, 2h overpowered, polearm overpowered, cav overpowered, throwers overpowered EVERYTHING IS OVER POWERED THAT IS NOT AN EXACT DUPLICATE OF MY OWN CLASS *WHINGE!*

I just hope the admins and people with the real decision making power keep a strong head about the hoardes of dumbshits in online gaming in general (and hence in crpg too) and understand their opinions are nothing other than momentary whinging until the next thing to complain about comes along.

[Camaris]

In my opinion throwing should just use throwing wpf when used in melee.
Then adjust their melee damage that all of them are worse then same weapons in 1h/2h/pole.

You get the ability to fight with your throwing weapons with good wpf and are able to throw them with no need to points in other groups.
You should still need powerstrike.

[Cheap_Shot]

In my opinion throwing should just use throwing wpf when used in melee.
Then adjust their melee damage that all of them are worse then same weapons in 1h/2h/pole.

You get the ability to fight with your throwing weapons with good wpf and are able to throw them with no need to points in other groups.
You should still need powerstrike.

Not all of the throwing weapons have alternative modes and the ones that do are god awful in melee. I hit someone I was on teamspeak with at range and they closed the gap to melee. I somehow blocked and hit them 5 or 6 times before they one hit killed me. Apparently I did about 1/16th damage to them total...welp.

The overall problem is that the forced wpf per point of powerthrow has ruined high level throwing. The amount of point investment it takes to get up to 9-10 powerthrow literally leaves you unable to wear armor, and without enough points for anything else. The gains you get from wpf are also next to worthless. Even at 130+ wpf throwing weapons fly slow and are childsplay to dodge, and are still incredibly inaccurate. Shots fly wild half the time and it's hard to even hit someone standing still.

To balance throwing, we don't need +40 to stacks and exploding ammo. We just need a tiny ammo increase, we need the super restrictive wpf limiter to be removed, and we need wpf to actually make a noticeable difference to gameplay. After that there's a lot of things you can do to limit it. Make shields decrease throwing accuracy, raise the powerthrow requirement for some weapons, make the bigger ones like the throwing lance unsheathe-able maybe. It doesn't matter too much really. Those three things I listed if fixed will make throwing viable again. 

There's a joke going around. The best way to dodge a thrower is to stand still. If you move from side to side, they'll hit you when their shot flies wild.

There is too much truth to that sadly. 

[Native_ATS]

You're right, I should give all throwing weapons +10 ammo, +50 damage and +100 accuracy just so you could finally kill people.
Oh and of course, they will have explosive ammo, something like Al_Adin's staff.

No, just try to do your job. sad that you have to joke about over buffing it, when you already showed you dont know what your doing by over nerffing it. If i didnt know better i would say your a bad dev

[Team_Jacob]

No, just try to do your job. sad that you have to joke about over buffing it, when you already showed you dont know what your doing by over nerffing it. If i didnt know better i would say your a bad dev

+1, but you might incur the banhammer.

[Gorath]

Native and Jacob, with their vagina's combined they are CAPTAIN bundle of sticks!  *Insert theme music here*

But seriously, you two really do just sound like a pair of butt-hurt toddlers at this point.  The level of whine in this thread is insane.

[Seawied]

Native and Jacob, with their vagina's combined they are CAPTAIN bundle of sticks!  *Insert theme music here*

But seriously, you two really do just sound like a pair of butt-hurt toddlers at this point.  The level of whine in this thread is insane.

did one of your kids hijack your computer? I'm having a hard time picturing a 30 year old writing something as immature at this.

[Gorath]

did one of your kids hijack your computer? I'm having a hard time picturing a 30 year old writing something as immature at this.

Yes indeed.  I am but a poor child banging away at the keys.  Why, are you cruising the net for a date?