Author Topic: Rules update, guidelines for admins  (Read 11360 times)

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Offline Gravoth_iii

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Re: Rules update, guidelines for admins
« Reply #30 on: July 05, 2017, 06:29:23 pm »
+5
Can we please ban some words like "noob", or using "peasant" in a offensive manner. Even "scrub" and "bitch" gets to me, please keep chat clean so i can have a good time again.


On a serious point though, force people to speak american. EU1 is always a 50/50 on entering, either you will see french or turkish. Its wack.
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Offline Westwood

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Re: Rules update, guidelines for admins
« Reply #31 on: July 05, 2017, 09:09:26 pm »
+1
I'm guessing you don't have wetlands and you're most likley regurgitating rhetoric...

but just in case, most states publish solid guides for wetland management, and wetlands are good to plant high value trees like hardwoods or nut trees next to, since you do not have to water them.  You could even plant some wild-rice, arrowroot, or a plethora of other foods and save monies on groceries.

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I mean, I'm just meming you but there are really wetlands in the lot next to my house. Lot is like a half acre, and there's a little shitty strip of wetlands in the Southwest corner of it, full of mosquitoes and old tires. Apparently that fucks up development for like half of it, if I recall correctly it means a septic tank couldn't be put in for any housing that gets built there (although I may be remembering incorrectly and that could have been because of other shitty lot reasons).

It's a tiny little fucker of a wetland though. Ain't no beavers or anything, just those tires.

Regardless I will look into the State of Washington's recommendations on what to do with my government-retarded land, thank you.
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Offline Asheram

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Re: Rules update, guidelines for admins
« Reply #32 on: July 05, 2017, 09:43:38 pm »
+1
Can we please ban some words like "noob", or using "peasant" in a offensive manner. Even "scrub" and "bitch" gets to me, please keep chat clean so i can have a good time again.


On a serious point though, force people to speak american. EU1 is always a 50/50 on entering, either you will see french or turkish. Its wack.
also ban my old friendchar and agiwhore
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Offline Mallets

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Re: Rules update, guidelines for admins
« Reply #33 on: July 05, 2017, 10:44:33 pm »
+2
Part 1

Hey Uther... really good post!

And even though I'd love to see more freedom in chat... I can't fault the Devs for this decision.  Drawing a hard line in the sand means that you have to police Admins less... because they can be more stern... and just say that it falls in the rules.  I don't agree with it.  But I understand that's probably impossible for Devs to police Admins.  Or at least it's too time-consuming... taking away your time from developing the mod.

Part 2

So can't blame you guys!  But I do hope that the admin group would be looked at thoroughly... just the same as you guys are looking that the actual mod itself.  Maybe reform the admin group.  Doesn't mean that the same guys can't be Admins.  But I'm sure over the years... all kind of folks have had all kinds of permissions.  Maybe that can be re-balanced and re-issued.

And I do hope some is policing the badmins!  Just the same as why we need admins!  People get out of control... are can be just plain idiots.  Admins are people and can do the same.  Hopefully someone is admin-ing the admins.

Part 3

So with racial themes being taken away from chat... what about homophobic?  I'd tend to say that we have more Transgender players than black players.  I know we do.  And new players are more likely to be transgender or homosexuals than they are black.  So if we are worried about losing new players... why not address homo slurs?

While we are at it... why not ban any cultural references?  Political references?  Gender references (sexist comments)?

Here's a big one... Pedophillia references!  I've seen more jokes about 12 year old Asians and Turkish boys than anything.  Yet everyone thinks this is ok!

Another big one... the word "retard".  Everyone says that.  But I know folks with handicap kids that are extremely offended by this term.  So should be ban the word "Retard" from our chat.  It's equally offensive (non-offensive) as any racial term.


Now for the record... I think it's ok as well.  I think all of that is ok to be honest.  Just trying to understand where the line is drawn.

Why is the line being drawn against folks who like to make racial references... as opposed to players who use language against other groups?


Closing Statement

With all that said... I know that this game is managed by the Devs.  Essentially, it's their property.  I respect their right to manage it in any way they see fit.  cRPG is a private enterprise... and it should have the freedom to be managed by it's proprietors in any way they see fit.  So in the end... as mentioned at the beginning of this post... I respect Uther's post!  And I certainly respect his time taken in writing and clarifying the devs thoughts.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2017, 11:52:36 pm by Mallets »

Offline Westwood

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Re: Rules update, guidelines for admins
« Reply #34 on: July 05, 2017, 11:36:00 pm »
0
Maybe reform the admin group.  Doesn't mean that the same guys can't be Admins.  But I'm sure over the years... all kind of folks have had all kinds of permissions.  Maybe that can be re-balanced and re-issued.
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Offline Horns

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Re: Rules update, guidelines for admins
« Reply #35 on: July 05, 2017, 11:50:49 pm »
+2
Part 1

Hey Uther... really good post!

And even though I'd love to see more freedom in chat... I can't fault the Devs for this decision.  Drawing a hard line in the sand means that you have to police Admins less... because they can be more stern... and just say that it falls in the rules.  I don't agree with it.  But I understand that's probably impossible for Devs to police Admins.  Or at least it's too time-consuming... taking away your time from developing the mod.

Part 2

So can't blame you guys!  But I do hope that the admin group would be looked at thoroughly... just the same as you guys are looking that the actual mod itself.  Maybe reform the admin group.  Doesn't mean that the same guys can't be Admins.  But I'm sure over the years... all kind of folks have had all kinds of permissions.  Maybe that can be re-balanced and re-issued.

And I do hope some is policing the badmins!  Just the same as why we need admins!  People get out of control... are can be just plain idiots.  Admins are people and can do the same.  Hopefully someone is admin-ing the admins.

Part 3

So with racial themes being taken away from chat... what about homophobic?  I'd tend to say that we have more Transgender players than black players.  I know we do.  And new players are more likely to be transgender or homosexuals than they are black.  So if we are worried about losing new players... why not address homo slurs?

While we are at it... why not ban any cultural references?  Political references?  Gender references (sexist comments)?

Here's a big one... Pedophillia references!  I've seen more jokes about 12 year old Asians and Turkish boys than anything.  Yet everyone thinks this is ok!

Another big one... the word "retard".  Everyone says that.  But I know folks with handicap kids that are extremely offended by this term.  So should be ban the word "Retard" from our chat.  It's equally offensive (non-offensive) as any racial term.


Now for the record... I think it's ok as well.  I think all of that is ok to be honest.  Just trying to understand where the line is drawn.  Why is the line being drawn against folks who like to make racial references... as opposed to players who use language against other groups.


Closing Statement

With all that said... I know that this game is managed by the Devs.  Essentially, it's their property.  I respect their right to manage it in any way they seem fit.  cRPG is a private enterprise... and it should have the freedom to be managed by it's proprietors in any way they see fit.  So in the end... as mentioned at the beginning of this post... I respect Uther's post!  And I certainly respect his time taken in writing and clarifying the devs thoughts.

Why is it that you act so respectful when you are defending racism but can't manage it at other times? If you acted like this post reads we wouldn't have to draw lines in the first place. Sad...
« Last Edit: July 05, 2017, 11:56:04 pm by Horns »

Offline Bittersteel

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Re: Rules update, guidelines for admins
« Reply #36 on: July 05, 2017, 11:53:33 pm »
+3
Mallets is right. Go all the way while you're at it. My brother is both homosexual and has a cognitive disability and so I take great offense when the chat is spammed with 'bundle of sticks' and 'retarded' which is even more frequent then any racial comments, atleast on EU.

Offline Uther Pendragon

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Re: Rules update, guidelines for admins
« Reply #37 on: July 06, 2017, 01:42:29 am »
+6
snip

Let me just state beforehand that I am not going to discuss this particular rule with you as this is not some debate or academic setting where we're contesting ideas - it's a free mod in which the devs and admins have given me a free hand to reshape this specific rule as I see fit in order to combat a rising and troublesoume tendency in NA servers that was reported to me by both admins and players, and also frequently posted on forums (alone during those 2 weeks I saw 2 collages of NA chat being uncivilized). Therefore I made an authoritarian use of my power and did as I pleased, naturally asking for opinion from a few other admins and Dupre, but in the end, it was not a democratically or openly discussed change. We want to uphold a certain standard in this mod, but it goes beyond that in my opinion.

The rule itself is not up to debate and I appreciate that you can respect it, and to be honest even if you're lowkey baiting me you raise a valid point so let me go in hook, line and sinker.

I'll try to explain my reasoning without sounding like a cunt, thought as long as I get my point across that's irrelevant to me))

Your question actually inspired me a bit to look into why I treated racism and homophobia differently, only expanding upon the racism rules - and I also ignored things like sexism, pedophilia jokes, transphobic jokes.

I'm a hypocrite here, as yes, I don't treat those forms of discrimination equally, as you can clearly see from my OP. I believe I have my good reasons for that, and that in the end, the result will be a net positive, at the very least the situation will not become worse.

To start off, there's a reason why the rule itself remained unchanged for so long, and for the longest time, we thought it was enough that it said "No abuse of in-game chat (racism, insulting, griefing, spamming...)", because it was simple, and concise. So what was the problem? That it had probably 100 meanings according to 100 people. Such is the issue with seemingly "simple" rules. I felt the need to make it more precise, with the intention to cull a rising trend of frequent usage of racist slurs in NA servers. I know there are other slurs in use, but the quantity of racist ones was a bit shocking to me at first.

Ramsey Clark wrote a simple yet profound paragraph once regarding why having rules or laws is almost never enough, and I'll quote him: "The law can only express a goal. It cannot fulfill that goal. We impose too much on the law because it seems easy to say that something shall be and then expect it to be. But life does not work that way; it never did and it never will. It takes people and institutions and hard work to make things so. "

I didn't expand on that rule because I believe it'll end the discrimination issue once and for all in cRPG; I wrote it hoping to start some tendency, a possibility for change of the behaviour of people in cRPG. As Clark wrote, it requires people, institutions and hard work to make things so. Laws and rules shouldn't never be reduced to just being scarecrows for people - they should teach, show how to act, and guide them.

My main reason for tackling racism alone is the practical reason - there's just a much higher quantity of racist content in chat compared to other types of slurs or chat abuse, and I'd wager to say that majority of mutes and bans ever handed out for chat abuse were due to racism. Of course, it could also mean that possible chat abuse that didn't include racism wasn't as reported, or was possibly ignored or downplayed, but I'm not omnipotent to know that. It is however fair to assume that not everything is treated as equally "bad".
Also, related to this, is that racism is much less ingrained in the online culture than, say, words like "bundle of sticks" or "retard". I think it's important to not let it grow roots now, while we still can firmly stand against it, in turn putting up with the homophobia and other forms of discrimination.

I am not a fan of this status quo, but let's be frank here with each other - some offensive words have became part of the online gaming culture, and I am not going to wage war on that, instead I want to target something that I find inexcusable.

Not related to multiplayer gaming at all, but racism is, along with sexism, one of the "easier" forms of discrimination. You don't need to know much about the other person - it's enough to see them once and if you know their skin colour, your racist tendencies can arise, unlike say making fun of their sexual orientation which would require you to know a little more about them.

Another thing is that racism and sexism is hating a person for things they have absolutely no power over - you do not choose your sex, you do not choose your skin colour. I know the same thing can be said about your sexual orientation and other traits like mental condition et all, but those two stand out as something that you cannot hide - again, it does not completely apply to online interactions as you can just keep your mouth shut and never mention either of those things.

We talk of what we can do - "we', as in the admins. But what can you do? Change starts at the bottom, with the players in this case, showing that they are not ok with behaviour that contradicts the rules. Insulting is already against the rules, must we go into detail here as well and list out all the instances in which insulting is "indeed, not ok"? We can, but remember what I said earlier - law can never fulfill a goal. It can express it, it can express it much more clearly, or leave it open to interpretation. I decided to narrow it down in case of racist slurs, but that's it, at least for now. I had my practical reasons to do this, and trust me, I wish I didn't have to do it. I'd much rather leave the field open to admin interpretation to avoid silly situations in which a concrete rule causes a illogical situation, but sometimes we just can't have nice things.

I don't want to delve into human dignity in this wall of text, it's a very expansive subject with many contradictory points of views which don't make as much sense in online setting. I hope at least some of that made sense to you, in the end, it is (I want to believe) an adequate response to a problem. It's not a solve-it-all, but it's a start. However the rest is not up to me, it's up to you guys.
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Offline GOBBLINKINGREATLEADER

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Re: Rules update, guidelines for admins
« Reply #38 on: July 06, 2017, 01:48:17 am »
+4
I would like to refer back here to Sandy's account signature.


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Offline Westwood

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Re: Rules update, guidelines for admins
« Reply #39 on: July 06, 2017, 01:59:50 am »
0
... you do not choose your sex, you do not choose your skin colour. I know the same thing can be said about your sexual orientation...
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Offline Kadeth

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Re: Rules update, guidelines for admins
« Reply #40 on: July 06, 2017, 02:12:58 am »
+12
me reading the guidelines

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when i realise i can still call the yanks cheeseburgers

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Offline Drunken_sailor

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Re: Rules update, guidelines for admins
« Reply #41 on: July 06, 2017, 02:51:26 am »
+1
Always do sober what you said you’d do drunk. That will teach you to keep your mouth shut
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Offline Mallets

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Re: Rules update, guidelines for admins
« Reply #42 on: July 06, 2017, 03:13:37 am »
0
snip

Hey Uther... great response man!  And for the record... I truly wasn't baiting.  Nor was I pushing you to have to explain yourself.

With that said, I do appreciate that you did.  I appreciate your honesty on your views between racism and homophobia.

And as mentioned in my post above... I respect that cRPG is private property.  It's running should be done so at the will of those that own it (the devs).  I don't mean that as any sly remark.  That's my honest opinion.  Even if I disagree with some of the rules... I respect it's the devs right to make the rules.  Not just because they physically hold the power... but because I believe as a private entity... it's your god-given right as the owners to make the rules.

And thus I respect your rules.  Truly.  And on a personal note, I respect the fact that you took the time to explain yourself.

Just they same... as with anything that folks want to see done... folks must fight for it (so to say).  Wanting to see some kind of change, whatever that maybe in whatever realm of things... folks must voice their opinion.  Thus I kept sharing my opinion why I wanted chat to be lax.

In the end... the rules are the rules... and they've been clearly laid out.  Folks should respect them.  Or if not, expect following punishment.  Which some may find worth the offense (that's their prerogative... as it is yours to punish them).

With that said... I do hope folks can keep sharing their opinions on the forum... on whatever topics... as long as they are civil... and not be punished for those civil opinions.  Which I believe you devs are ok with... since you revoked all the recent forum bans.  Which is much appreciated!

Again, I appreciate the lengthy response.  I truly wasn't baiting for it.  Just sharing my two cents!  And namely typing because I like these forums and sharing my thoughts on them.

Offline Uther Pendragon

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Re: Rules update, guidelines for admins
« Reply #43 on: July 06, 2017, 03:18:32 am »
+2
snap

The forum mutes weren't intentional, for now it's a glitch in the system untill Dupre knows more for certain)) And those rules are in-game rules specifically, forum rules remain untouched.
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Re: Rules update, guidelines for admins
« Reply #44 on: July 06, 2017, 03:39:05 am »
+1
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Late reply, but you can thank my brother for the collage he worked like an hour on it.
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LOL U MAD my old friendOT ?? 1V1 ME ANY SERVER ANY DAY, SAME RESULT KIDDO, UR COMPLETE AND UDDER DESTRUKTION!! I EFFORDLESSLY DESTROY U WITH PING CHAMBER AND EPIK FEINTS SO FUCK OFF !!