Author Topic: Jan Böhmermann faces imprisonment for insulting Tardogan?  (Read 15854 times)

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Offline Kafein

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Re: Jan Böhmermann faces imprisonment for insulting Tardogan?
« Reply #60 on: April 07, 2016, 08:51:53 pm »
0
You see Xant, it is all well and good to be rigorous and ruthlessly open-minded. However it only works well with intelligent people.

As you probably know or realized by now, 80% of anything is shit, and that includes humans. It is no doubt an extremely paternalizing attitude to take, but I reckon it's more realistic to avoid spreading discourse that can easily be misunderstood. If you do, at least some part of those 80% of idiots will not understand what you wanted to say and still take your word for it, while some part of those 20% of intelligent people will take advantage of it. Sure, I would love a planet where nobody is an idiot, but that's simply not the world I live in. And there's an astounding number of things that these people have an uncanny ability to ruin, not the least of which being law.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2016, 09:30:25 pm by Kafein »

Offline Xant

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Re: Jan Böhmermann faces imprisonment for insulting Tardogan?
« Reply #61 on: April 07, 2016, 09:00:34 pm »
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80% sounds like a low estimate.
Meaning lies as much
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Offline Kafein

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Re: Jan Böhmermann faces imprisonment for insulting Tardogan?
« Reply #62 on: April 07, 2016, 09:30:17 pm »
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I used that one because it's very commonly used as in the "80% rule" and such things.

Offline Xant

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Re: Jan Böhmermann faces imprisonment for insulting Tardogan?
« Reply #63 on: April 07, 2016, 09:37:28 pm »
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Yes, I know about the Pareto principle, I just don't think it applies to humans. As Harry Potter himself put it:

Quote
He'd failed to reach what Harry was starting to realize was a shockingly high standard of being so incredibly, unbelievably rational that you actually started to get things right, as opposed to having a handy language in which to describe afterwards everything you'd just done wrong. Harry could look back now and apply ideas like 'motivated cognition' to see where he'd gone astray over the last year. That counted for something, when it came to being saner in the future. That was better than having no idea what he'd done wrong.

I might subscribe to the notion that 80% are shit and 20% are decent, but I still wouldn't call those 20% smart by my standards, or rational, or want them making laws. That percentage is much, much smaller.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2016, 09:40:30 pm by Xant »
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Offline Angantyr

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Re: Jan Böhmermann faces imprisonment for insulting Tardogan?
« Reply #64 on: April 07, 2016, 09:44:53 pm »
+1
Of course the mass-murder of Jews (and Eastern Europeans in general) in whatever form is well-substantiated, what most revisionists are interested in is the details. The number of dead for example fluctuate with a few million depending on which historian you ask, also among Israeli historians, and if there was a grand scheme of extermination or it just happened for whatever reason (hunger, disease, slave labour, random killings - which are all undisputed), and if so when this was planned and by whom and how it was carried out.
There's been a ton of post-war fabrications (like soap and lampshades made of dead Jews and numerous document forgeries), unreliable eye witnesses, squeamishness, industry and interest group bias and lack of clear-cut Final Solution documentation to muddle the picture, but for anyone interested I can recommend the court transcripts from the Irving vs Lipstadt trial, after Lipstadt had called David Irving a holocaust denier in a book and he consequently made a libel case against her and Penguin publishing (putting the burden of evidence on her), and destroyed his own career in the process. Here the prosecutor and defense goes through much of the available evidence, and usual points of contention. If I remember correctly, and it's been many years since I've read up on this topic, one of the better sources for numbers were German population census before and after the war. The sheer volume of evidence hinting at orders for the Final Solution (on the background of all the other evidence from the war years), if only implicitly, are also enough for most serious historians to consider it a historical fact, within the usual parameters of historical uncertainty.

If anyone find the transcripts a bit dry I know there's journalists who've described the trial in some detail.

http://www.hdot.org/en/trial/transcripts/
« Last Edit: April 07, 2016, 11:50:44 pm by Angantyr »

Offline Xant

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Re: Jan Böhmermann faces imprisonment for insulting Tardogan?
« Reply #65 on: April 07, 2016, 10:05:19 pm »
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Of course the mass-murder of Jews (and Eastern Europeans in general) in whatever form is well-substantiated, what most revisionists are interested in is the details. The number of dead for example fluctuate with a few million depending on which historian you ask, also among Israeli historians, and if there was a grand scheme of extermination or it just happened for whatever reason (hunger, disease, slave labour, random killings - which are all undisputed), and if so when this was planned and by whom and how it was carried out.
There's been a ton of post-war fabrications (like soap and lampshades made of dead Jews and numerous document forgeries), squeamishness and lack of clear-cut Final Solution documentation to muddle the picture, but for anyone interested I can recommend the court transcripts from the Irving vs Lipstadt trial, after Lipstadt had called David Irving a holocaust denier in a book and he consequently made a libel case against her and Penguin publishing (putting the burden of evidence on her), and destroyed his own career in the process. Here the prosecutor and defense goes through much of the available evidence, a lot of which had been kept locked away in Israel for decades. If I remember correctly one of the better sources for numbers were German population census before and after the war. The sheer volume of evidence hinting at orders for the Final Solution (on the background of all the other evidence from the war years), if only implicitly, are also enough for most serious historians to consider it a historical fact, within the usual parameters of historical uncertainty.

If anyone find the transcripts a bit dry I know there's journalists who've described the trial in some detail.

http://www.hdot.org/en/trial/transcripts/
I didn't read it all, but the bits I read were neither her nor there -- it was just about winning a libel suit.

http://codoh.com/library/series/3694/
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Offline Falka

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Re: Jan Böhmermann faces imprisonment for insulting Tardogan?
« Reply #66 on: April 07, 2016, 10:21:38 pm »
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Educate yourself

Quote
we no longer believe the gas chamber stories (we used to very much believe them) or the “genocide” theory,

we no longer believe the German State pursued a plan to kill all Jews or used homicidal “gassing chambers” for mass murder during the years of World War II.

it appears that all such eyewitness testimony about homicidal chocolate chip cookie gas chambers is false.

the gas chamber controversy.

What? So they don't deny the holocaust, but they say there were no gas chambers and no genocide?

You saw the millions of Jews disappear personally?

No, but I have seen gas chambers, crematory ovens and huge pile of ashes which remained after Jews and other people who were killed there. So yeah, fuck these guys and fuck their "intellectual freedom".
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Offline Xant

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Re: Jan Böhmermann faces imprisonment for insulting Tardogan?
« Reply #67 on: April 07, 2016, 10:25:15 pm »
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No, but I have seen gas chambers, crematory ovens and huge pile of ashes which remained after Jews and other people who were killed there. So yeah, fuck these guys and fuck their "intellectual freedom".
I once stood on a football field and discovered that Earth is flat.

Your reasoning is driven by pure emotion, and so your rationality should tell you that it's unreliable. This evidence you speak of would not convince you of anything that you weren't so emotionally invested in. I've seen ash before; as far as I know, it came from wood, not Jews and homosexuals, but I couldn't have told the difference.

http://codoh.com/library/document/3331/

You should take a look at this, Angantyr. It touches on the "German population consensus" statistic and other things, and the tone is very neutral throughout.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2016, 10:37:04 pm by Xant »
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Offline Falka

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Re: Jan Böhmermann faces imprisonment for insulting Tardogan?
« Reply #68 on: April 07, 2016, 10:39:43 pm »
+1
Your reasoning is driven by pure emotion,

Of course it is, but there's a greater good in it.
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Offline Turkhammer

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Re: Jan Böhmermann faces imprisonment for insulting Tardogan?
« Reply #69 on: April 07, 2016, 11:54:16 pm »
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You saw the millions of Jews disappear personally? Yeah, didn't think so. That's like saying denying Creationism is "completely retarded" because "lol, humans hardly created themselves."



The Na-zis kept very good records.  They were quite meticulous.

Offline Xant

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Re: Jan Böhmermann faces imprisonment for insulting Tardogan?
« Reply #70 on: April 08, 2016, 12:23:04 am »
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The Na-zis kept very good records.  They were quite meticulous.
So who kept which records and of what? Who as in, what was the person called? And what did they say, exactly?
Meaning lies as much
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Offline Daunt_Flockula

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Re: Jan Böhmermann faces imprisonment for insulting Tardogan?
« Reply #71 on: April 08, 2016, 12:55:17 am »
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If the stuff they say in the news is correct, id overall say that you turks are in general completely fucked. Its quite likely Tardogan is gonna leave Turkey in utter ruins and there really isnt anything anyone can do about it. In reality the only way that Turkey survives is if he resigns peacefully and in his place comes someone entirely not related to him in any way. Which is completely unlikely. Forcefully taking down a guy like him is only possible with a massive bloodshed and damage that will take decades to recover from. Whoever or whatever the force taking him down will be.

Not only that I dont think Europeans are gonna ever accept any more refugees either from the Middle-Eastern part of the world, by the time Turkey collapses. So really for you poor bastards Europe will eventually be out of the question too. Even if you do get to Europe sooner you will be threated like on of the "scum" anyway. Like our forums raging at Europeans turk Reyiz or whatever his name is keeps yelling about.  Your best bet is to run to the Gulf countries. But getting a welcome there is unlikely too. Overall I feel for ya brother. It aint easy fearing every day for the imminent collapse and discovering that there isnt anywhere to turn to.

Yeah, "fucked" doesn't even suffice to define the situation. Back in the day, I'd never picture myself thinking long and hard about the future. But here we are. The last secular democracy in the Middle East is crumbling just because the quest for designing the Greater Middle East failed miserably. And meanwhile, the dictator was enabled so much due to his instrumental role that even his creators don't have the slightest clue as to how to get rid of him.

Also I can never imagine leaving for another country, although for people like me the situation isn't really much different than what those scores of Syrian refugees are experiencing. I have a home here and a so-called life, which are both as good as a lie.

Offline Westwood

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Re: Jan Böhmermann faces imprisonment for insulting Tardogan?
« Reply #72 on: April 08, 2016, 01:02:46 am »
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Assuming there really is a vast worldwide conspiracy that manipulated the number of deaths which were reported to have occured during the Holocaust in some way

why do you care? What bearing does that have on your life?
Maybe you are not bad, but you are a boring person. Well, that's the end of the matter.

Offline Turkhammer

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Re: Jan Böhmermann faces imprisonment for insulting Tardogan?
« Reply #73 on: April 08, 2016, 04:54:37 am »
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So who kept which records and of what? Who as in, what was the person called? And what did they say, exactly?

It's available to any one who wishes to look. 

Offline Paul

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Re: Jan Böhmermann faces imprisonment for insulting Tardogan?
« Reply #74 on: April 08, 2016, 07:16:14 am »
+4
Assuming there really is a vast worldwide conspiracy that manipulated the number of deaths which were reported to have occured during the Holocaust in some way

why do you care? What bearing does that have on your life?


Like on multiple other topics he can call out the sheep while enjoying the view from the "top".

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