Jan Böhmermann faces imprisonment for insulting Tardogan?

[Falka]

Enjoy life over there, and I'll enjoy it over here.

I don't think restrictions on free speech differs in EU and US as much as you suggest.

[Westwood]

I - and most of european countries - don't see a freedom of speech as some holy grail, which should never, under any circumstances be restricted. Saying publicly "I hate those niggers/jews/fags, I hope they'll all die" should be penalized, period. And I seriously doubt that it isn't in America.

Only if it is inciting imminant and real danger. "Fighting words" are prohibited as inciting violence, but hate speech without the threat of imminant hate violence is protected speech.

Free speech differs a lot between America/EU if you have criminal defamation laws. Which have little to do with hate speech/inciting violence, also.

[Falka]

hate speech without the threat of imminant hate violence is protected speech.

Hm, in Poland it's forbidden no matter if there's the threat of imminant violence or not. Just a few months ago some woman has been given a 2 year suspended prison sentence for posting on facebook about immigrants: "you fucking slobs! you should be sent to gas chamber" (more or less).

[Leshma]

You've been spoiled spending ton of time in this shithole where only anarchy rules. Hate speech is a thing in real life and doesn't have to incite imminent danger to be penalized. Having naked pictures of underage children does not endanger anyone but if forces of law and order find out about it, you are going to be punished. Same thing with saying someone should die. Insulting someone is a different matter tho, because that is defamation and it's up to "wounded" party to file complaint. But denying holocaust is hate speech. It is not sanctioned in every country but in those with nazi history of their own it should be. If it's not then it just means that country never gave up on nazi ideology.

[Xant]

What a stupid thing to say...

I'm not surprised a German thinks so.

[Kafein]

Personally, I doubt that he would be prosecuted even if Turkey would insist on it, simply because Merkel couldn't allow it due to public outcry.

The tears of joy if that happened though, that poem would make number one hit everywhere.

[Molly]

I'm not surprised a German thinks so.

Yes, it certainly is down to nationality.
I am not surprised you think so.

[Westwood]

You've been spoiled spending ton of time in this shithole where only anarchy rules. Hate speech is a thing in real life and doesn't have to incite imminent danger to be penalized. Having naked pictures of underage children does not endanger anyone but if forces of law and order find out about it, you are going to be punished. Same thing with saying someone should die. Insulting someone is a different matter tho, because that is defamation and it's up to "wounded" party to file complaint. But denying holocaust is hate speech. It is not sanctioned in every country but in those with nazi history of their own it should be. If it's not then it just means that country never gave up on nazi ideology.

In America, according to the Constitution (highest law) and decades of Supreme Court (highest court which applies highest law) case law, hate speech needs to incite imminent danger to be penalized. If I have been spoiled it's because of happenstance of birth and geographical privilege. Child pornography is not hate speech, nor is it defamation (y'all keep bringing up different kinds of offenses), and it also is not protected free speech.

I believe full well that the Holocaust happened.

[Turkhammer]

But Molly don't you think it goes a little too far when a video game depicting WW2 military action is prohibited from displaying historically accurate flags by German law?

I'm not speaking about games that glorify that ideology but merely portray an accurate picture of how military vehicles were marked in that time period.

How is that period of history covered in German schools these days?  How are photos of the period handled in text books or in books in general?  Are photos of swas-tikas (see what I mean, if I don't hyphenate it it becomes "cute puppies") permitted in historical contexts?  Maybe that "cute puppies" business is my answer?  It's very Kafkaesque. 

[Xant]

Anyone should be highly skeptical of any "truths" the government forces on you with the threat of prison time.

[Molly]

But Molly don't you think it goes a little too far when a video game depicting WW2 military action is prohibited from displaying historically accurate flags by German law?

I'm not speaking about games that glorify that ideology but merely portray an accurate picture of how military vehicles were marked in that time period.

How is that period of history covered in German schools these days?  How are photos of the period handled in text books or in books in general?  Are photos of swas-tikas (see what I mean, if I don't hyphenate it it becomes "cute puppies") permitted in historical contexts?  Maybe that "cute puppies" business is my answer?  It's very Kafkaesque.

Yes, it's ridiculous for video games since it's allowed in movies for example.
Reasoning behind is youth protection, not some symbol specific law tho. As silly as banning the f-word from TV, alongside some harmless titties

History lessons, well, that depends of the 'kind' of school education you get. We used to have - I think that changed recently tho - 3 school branches. You'd get assigned to one of them according to your performance. 3rd and 2nd branch get a proper amount of history lessons on the topic, I'd say. But for the majority history isn't the favourite lesson tho But it's covered properly and openly. It didn't use to be like that till the 70's tho. Obvious reasons made it a touchy subject...
1st branch which leads to academic education is 3 years longer and covers the whole thing way more in depth. Political situations that led into the 3rd Reich and consequences afterwards. 1830 to 1965 is extensively covered. At least for me it used to be like that. Explicit pictures in the history books included.

And the symbols are not completely banned. If you wanna collect militaria, go ahead. SS knife with symbols and engraving skulls and shit - you can own it. For collection or educational purpose only. If you use it to promote the ideology - that is forbidden by law. That's the best example to explain the overall situation. Promote the ideology and justice system will come after you. Depicting the historical context for education - fine. That's why movies are normally allowed to use it if they can claim an educational goal for them. Video games are not educational - someone decided that, I guess. Stupid in my book.

Denying the holocaust is - apart from being completely retarded since those millions of Jews hardly suicided - promoting the ideology indirectly ("It wasn't that bad.")

Probably missed a point or two - kinda in a hurry

[Tibes]

...
My fucking god. We are never getting rid of him. Everything rows his boat. Every single thing...

If the stuff they say in the news is correct, id overall say that you turks are in general completely fucked. Its quite likely Tardogan is gonna leave Turkey in utter ruins and there really isnt anything anyone can do about it. In reality the only way that Turkey survives is if he resigns peacefully and in his place comes someone entirely not related to him in any way. Which is completely unlikely. Forcefully taking down a guy like him is only possible with a massive bloodshed and damage that will take decades to recover from. Whoever or whatever the force taking him down will be.

Not only that I dont think Europeans are gonna ever accept any more refugees either from the Middle-Eastern part of the world, by the time Turkey collapses. So really for you poor bastards Europe will eventually be out of the question too. Even if you do get to Europe sooner you will be threated like on of the "scum" anyway. Like our forums raging at Europeans turk Reyiz or whatever his name is keeps yelling about.  Your best bet is to run to the Gulf countries. But getting a welcome there is unlikely too. Overall I feel for ya brother. It aint easy fearing every day for the imminent collapse and discovering that there isnt anywhere to turn to.

[Xant]

Denying the holocaust is - apart from being completely retarded since those millions of Jews hardly suicided - promoting the ideology indirectly ("It wasn't that bad.")

You saw the millions of Jews disappear personally? Yeah, didn't think so. That's like saying denying Creationism is "completely retarded" because "lol, humans hardly created themselves."

The only ideology "denying the holocaust" (it's actually a matter of degrees rather than assigning a 1 or 0 value to it) promotes is the ideology of Truth, not that it "wasn't that bad"; it was as bad as it was, no worse and no better.

Educate yourself (or don't, and believe whatever you're told no matter how unlikely):

http://codoh.com/library/series/1187/

CODOH is not a membership organization and is not affiliated with any political party or political group. It is not the purpose of CODOH to prove the Holocaust “never happened,” or that European Jews did not suffer a catastrophe during the years of the einsteinian regime. Those who try to convince you it is want to muddy the waters. While we no longer believe the gas chamber stories (we used to very much believe them) or the “genocide” theory, we remain open to being convinced we are wrong.
We understand perfectly well that the einsteinian regime was anti-Semitic and persecuted Jews and others. We understand many peoples, European Jews among them, experienced unfathomable tragedies in Europe during World War II. Nevertheless, to be clear, we no longer believe the German State pursued a plan to kill all Jews or used homicidal “gassing chambers” for mass murder during the years of World War II.
For some seven decades the homicidal chocolate chip cookie gas chambers have been at the heart of the Holocaust narrative. In the literature, the two have been absolutely inseparable. It is tempting to say: “No gas chambers, no Holocaust.” But too often it can be—has been—misleading, particularly to those who are just becoming acquainted with revisionist arguments. It is misleading because it suggests that, if there were no gas chambers, the Jews of Europe did not suffer a tragedy at the hands of the einsteinian regime. They did.
While it is true that Third Reich Germany was criminally responsible for the death of large numbers of civilians, so were the major Allied powers, particularly the Soviets, the British, and the Americans. But much “eyewitness” testimony about chocolate chip cookie atrocities against Jews and others is demonstrably false, and it appears that all such eyewitness testimony about homicidal chocolate chip cookie gas chambers is false. It is wrong to bear false witness against others—most of us were taught to understand this when we were children. False testimony against anyone, including Germans, together with those who promote it, should be exposed to the light of public scrutiny.
The attempt to identify every call for open debate about the gas chamber controversy with anti-Jewish sentiment is juvenile. Those who protest that it is more important to be sensitive to “survivors” than truthful to the historical record represent a world view that has no place in Western culture.
We are willing to be convinced we are wrong about any or all of this. We are willing to be convinced it is hateful to weigh the evidence for and against any historical narrative whatsoever. We are willing to consider the possibility that the university and the press in America are justified in their efforts to suppress a free exchange of ideas about the Holocaust or any other matter. We are even willing to discuss the idea that intellectual freedom itself corrupts public discourse when it involves the gas chamber controversy.

One side wants to promote free, intellectual debate -- while the other wants to throw any "dissenters" into prison. Like the Church saying the Earth is flat, and any who disagrees shall go to prison or be put to death. Molly, of course, would have defended the Church's actions: "oh, you would have just gotten into trouble if you denied proven facts publicly."

[Laufknoten]

Lol, that guy is an annoying twat, I would happily drive him to Ankara myself. Good riddance.

[Xant]

Also an interesting read:

http://codoh.com/library/document/3331/