We Are Reverting

[Mr_Oujamaflip]

Agility is balanced around s-key whores and ranged.

For the high agility builds that just want to fight and move quicker in battle it is horribly balanced. Your speed has an equal chance to work against you depending on mistakes in footwork. There is no real reward for playing high agility other than movement speed and you're right it does seem capped.

Also I really don't think there is a difference from having 200 wpf vs 150 of the same wpf. The few points of damage are not worth it when you can perform the same with a minimum wpf and get more power-strike which increases the damage a lot more.

Very this.

[Butan]

Multiplayer game balance is about balancing around the highest tiers of play for the highest skilled players.

are starcraft 2, league of legends, dota etc balanced around mid-level pubs or are they balanced around the competitive scene/top 1% pubs?

cRPG playerbase is 90% highly skilled players by now. Everyone who posts here have a right to say what they think, its all valid points as long as its argued, because its backed by years of playing the game. Your opinion is not superior to others.

Even if you were right about you and those who coincidentally share your views; you are one of the top player of cRPG. How did you find this result? There is no ranking system and the mod is full of players who dont try too hard anymore, you only go by overly boasting here, and as I said it will not give you a shot at changing where the game is going, it destroy your credibility for those who are not in agreement with you.
If you want we can duel and the one who wins gets to have his opinion made valid? 


Despite the fact that the playerbase of our mod is very profficient at it, there is no clear common opinion about how the game should be, can you tell me why?
I believe it is because you are only pushing one point of view, among a hundred others who all have valid points and can be argued, just like I said... So if you could remove the arrogant foolishness parts of your posts, it would tremendously help pushing what you believe in. That or keep stroking that ego until it shines.


That said, I agree about the ranged part of your argument, just in case you think I disagree with you just because you're a jerk.

[bagge]

cRPG playerbase is 90% highly skilled players by now.

Pls...

Soo Rus Bow will be back to normal? Plez

[Gafferjack]

I don't play this mod (much, at all, anymore, etc), but the fact that you brushed off arguments with carefully manipulated examples bugs the fucking shit out of me.

Compensating for wide crosshairs requires skill; shooting with pinpoint accurate ranged weapons does not. Landing a headshot into a 20 pixel head is harder with a 30 pixel crosshair than with a 1 pixel crosshair, and it doesn't come down to luck. If you center your 30 pixels into the 20 pixels, chances are you'll hit. If you aim at the top left edge of the earlobe with your 1 pixel, you'll still hit although you technically didn't aim at the center of the head.

First off, the bolded part is horseshit. I don't even know how you can have this viewpoint.

In your example, aiming at the center of the head lets you hit 100% with a pinpoint crosshair and ~66% with the wider crosshair. Aiming at the top left edge of the earlobe with a wide crosshair only gives you increased chance to miss because you didn't aim at the center of the head. Additionally, aiming at 1 pixel to the side of the head misses with a pinpoint crosshair, yet you still have a chance to hit the head with a wider crosshair.

(click to show/hide)

Not quite; imagine a player has a jittery hand, thus consistently misses the pixel he wants to aim at by an average of 10 pixels into any direction. He wants to aim at the center of a 20 pixels sized head with a pinpoint accurate weapon. Instead, he slips as usual and hits a point 10 pixels away from the center of the head. Due to the pinpoint accurate weapon, the shot hits the 20 pixels sized head missing the center by 10 pixels. It is still a headshot.

In the next case, imagine the jittery player uses a weapon with a 20 pixels sized crosshair. He wants to aim at the center of the 20 pixels sized head again, but slips by 10 pixels. 50% of the 20 pixels sized crosshair is now outside the area of the 20 pixels sized head, meaning he will miss with a likelihood of 50%.

Now assume a player with perfect aim and a weapon with a 20 pixels wide crosshair. He aims at the center of the 20 pixels sized head, doesn't slip unlike the jittery one, and the shot hits despite the inaccuracy of the weapon because the crosshair perfectly overlaps the head.

The pinpoint accurate system does the jittery player a favor, because he is able to land shots he otherwise wouldn't. The perfectly aiming player is indifferent about pinpoint accuracy or the 20 pixels sized crosshair, because he hits either way.

Consequently, the pinpoint accurate system promotes careless shooting into the general direction of the head, whereas the system involving randomness requires special care to center the wide crosshair over an equally-sized area. The prior needs less skill, the latter needs more.

Increase the jittery player's inaccuracy by 1 pixel, or slightly reduce the size of the head and he misses with the pinpoint crosshair every time.

Here is a mastercraft picture illustrating my point. (http://i.imgur.com/Nx407dv.png for people who don't want to log into this horrible forum)
visitors can't see pics , please register or login


The white dot represents a pinpoint crosshair, enlarged for viewing purposes. The red circle represents a wider crosshair approximately the size of the head.

In the image, the pinpoint crosshair misses, while the wider crosshair has a decent chance of hitting the head. If the wider crosshair user hits the head, he wasn't more skilled than the pinpoint crosshair user, he just got lucky. The random inaccuracy caused him to hit, not his skill.

It's true that there are times when you can hit with a pinpoint crosshair and miss with a wider one. However, the only reason you missed is because of the random inaccuracy that is inherent in the wider crosshair; random inaccuracy that can equally cause a hit on a missed pinpoint shot. You're rewarded for being inaccurate compared to the pinpoint crosshair. This is less skill-based. Just because you're inherently penalized for shooting doesn't mean you're more skilled.

[a_bear_irl]

cRPG playerbase is 90% highly skilled players by now. Everyone who posts here have a right to say what they think, its all valid points as long as its argued, because its backed by years of playing the game. Your opinion is not superior to others.

Even if you were right about you and those who coincidentally share your views; you are one of the top player of cRPG. How did you find this result? There is no ranking system and the mod is full of players who dont try too hard anymore, you only go by overly boasting here, and as I said it will not give you a shot at changing where the game is going, it destroy your credibility for those who are not in agreement with you.
If you want we can duel and the one who wins gets to have his opinion made valid? 


Despite the fact that the playerbase of our mod is very profficient at it, there is no clear common opinion about how the game should be, can you tell me why?
I believe it is because you are only pushing one point of view, among a hundred others who all have valid points and can be argued, just like I said... So if you could remove the arrogant foolishness parts of your posts, it would tremendously help pushing what you believe in. That or keep stroking that ego until it shines.


That said, I agree about the ranged part of your argument, just in case you think I disagree with you just because you're a jerk.

obviously i'm his friend but badplayer is the 2nd best cav to play the game (after rohypnol), has been for years a Noted pubstomper, and through some tremendous feats of autism (back when duel points were for all duels) got to #1 EU duel and top 10 NA at the same time. even now after some years mostly away from the game he's still usually near the top of the scoreboard on battle and in strat when there's cav gear for him to crutch on. you can definitely call him a shitposter or a sperg but his ego exists because he's better at the game than almost everyone.

almost all the "top tier" players have the same opinions on stuff anyway, though there is some class based bias to be fair.

the turn nerf is a good example of what happens when middle of the road players are used to make balance decisions, literally no top 10% player though it was a good idea but cmp and paul completely ignored them because they were bottom of the scoreboard trashcans who kept losing 1v1s to people with pikes and decided that wasn't right, and nevermind that it fucked melee up big time.

[Asheram]

So what was reverted? Because light and hunting xbow still take forever to reload or was that day off from game and forums not the revertion patch?

[Shemaforash]

You can dislike me as a person all you want but the facts are that I have more experience as a skilled player than anybody disagreeing with me, more experience as an item balancer than even the ones who are currently doing it, more experience at being objective and not blatantly supporting my own class by the fact that I always have called for nerfs to Cavalry which is the class I mostly play because I believe it to be overpowered.

You can believe what you want and let this game get worse, or actually listen to the opinions of someone who is objectively right.

crpg pubstars are pretty funny actually

[Gravoth_iii]

Buff shields

edit: I am constantly holding up my shield, 5 shield skill, and often i still get shit around it when im pointing it in the general direction towards ranged. Shouldnt happen imho.

[SayAttack]

cRPG playerbase is 90% highly skilled players by now. Everyone who posts here have a right to say what they think, its all valid points as long as its argued, because its backed by years of playing the game. Your opinion is not superior to others.

^^
i just remember i asked tydeus "How do you decide what changes would be helpful?" ) strange thing, but ppl who are realy good, who obviously understand how it works,  rarely post smt .
on the other hand, evry fukin nub is committed to spam his useless opinion( like me, for example))
anyway  Credo quia absurdum . who, if not na?)

[Rhekimos]

I am constantly holding up my shield, 5 shield skill, and often i still get shit around it when im pointing it in the general direction towards ranged. Shouldnt happen imho.

Which shield?
While we wait for a patch, you should try a round one. They have been the only ones offering decent protection from ranged. When anything non-round leaves your sides wide open, even to just slightly off your center line.

So what was reverted? Because light and hunting xbow still take forever to reload or was that day off from game and forums not the revertion patch?

That was just the web server being down. The game actually worked, with the exception of Strategus.

[Gravoth_iii]

Which shield?
While we wait for a patch, you should try a round one. They have been the only ones offering decent protection from ranged. When anything non-round leaves your sides wide open, even to just slightly off your center line.

Round shield, it does have good coverage but i think shields in general should just be basically a huge forcefield against arrows from the front.

[Rico]

It's true that there are times when you can hit with a pinpoint crosshair and miss with a wider one. However, the only reason you missed is because of the random inaccuracy that is inherent in the wider crosshair; random inaccuracy that can equally cause a hit on a missed pinpoint shot. You're rewarded for being inaccurate compared to the pinpoint crosshair. This is less skill-based. Just because you're inherently penalized for shooting doesn't mean you're more skilled.

There are situations where you're rewarded for being inaccurate with a wider crosshair.
There are also situations where you're rewarded for being inaccurate with a pinpoint accurate crosshair.
Rng does both of that.

Rng implies you need to reposition once in a while to increase the expected efficiency of your shots. I don't see how that's bad. More skirmishing, less camping also leads to more hybridization, higher chances for melee to kill ranged, and less delaying.

[Gravoth_iii]

There are situations where you're rewarded for being inaccurate with a wider crosshair.
There are also situations where you're rewarded for being inaccurate with a pinpoint accurate crosshair.
Rng does both of that.

Rng implies you need to reposition once in a while to increase the expected efficiency of your shots. I don't see how that's bad. More skirmishing, less camping also leads to more hybridization, higher chances for melee to kill ranged, and less delaying.

How are you rewarded for being inaccurate with pinpoint? You arent inaccurate if you hit, theres no rng there. Its the opposite of inaccuracy.

[Gafferjack]

There are situations where you're rewarded for being inaccurate with a wider crosshair.
There are also situations where you're rewarded for being inaccurate with a pinpoint accurate crosshair.

The head does not consist only of its center. The center of the head is the bullseye. If you hit the side of the head, you still hit the target. The reason you're rewarded for being inaccurate with a wider crosshair is because you would have otherwise missed the target. The only reason you hit the target is because of a random element that was outside of your control.

I'm not arguing for or against RNG either way. RNG is simply inherently less skill-based because you have less control over whatever action RNG is involved in. This doesn't mean that you don't need a high level of skill in order to compensate for random deviation, but to say that it takes no skill to use something pinpoint accurate that is otherwise identical in this context is misguided.

[Yeldur]

Just to correct your analogy.  The US won every battle in Viet Nam versus the Viet Cong or NVA regulars.  The war lasted so long with no clear results and constant losses of men and money that the country and the population grew sick and tired of it and pulled out.  To have your analogy be correct Strength builds would win every round but grow tired of playing endless rounds and quit.

(Apologies with my analogy, I'm aware that the US won all actual battles in Vietnam but my point was that they used Guerrilla tactics to wear them down to a point where they were getting absolutely ruined by them.)

You forget that your point brings along with it the implication that every person on the other team is playing an AGIwhore when teams will be much more balanced out, I mean a couple of AGIwhores would perform Guerrilla like tactics to split numbers and break them apart whilst your main force decimates the people (Now between a boulder and an annoying cunt AGIwhore)

Would you not agree that if a few AGIwhores snuck around back and took on the archers whilst your main force fought against their main force that would give you a significant advantage? I believe it would.