Dev Blog #5 Combat

[Xant]

Some potentially good things, some potentially bad things. Some of the concerning ones:

- Stamina tends to lower the skill ceiling. Sprinting is good, however, and having a stamina system tied only to sprinting wouldn't be a very contentious decision.

- Auto-blocking if you have the right stance selected. If it takes more time to switch to a stance and attack than it does to attack in Warband, then it's going to make anything that isn't a duel very annoying. It might even make duels annoying, prolonging them needlessly by making the first attacks very easy to block until you've depleted your opponent's stamina.

- Stances. Sounds like they're going to lower the skill ceiling when it comes to anything but duels, again. One of the best things about M&B is that you can fight multiple opponents if you're good enough -- there is a definite advantage to having the numbers on your side, but numbers don't equal victory by default.

So it sounds pretty good for one-on-one fights, but extremely limiting when it comes to fighting more than one guy, alone or not. Having melee combat be very lethal where it's possible to die in two, maybe even one in some circumstances, blow(s) makes it more exciting and rewarding. I've heard the argument before that it may not be thought of as fun for people new to the game, but I'd disagree.

One, high lethality combat makes it possible for newbs to kill experienced players without adding any lame gimmicks or artificial limiting factors, everyone makes a mistake eventually. Two, it's just more exciting when you know you might be one hit away from death, if you know you can take 2-3 more you're not as concerned. Being concerned when in reach of sharp, pointy objects is good. Three, makes it more rewarding not just for the skilled player who managed to pull off a flashy instant kill, but for the newer player, who goes from dying instantly to the experienced guy to surviving three exchanges, then four, then five, then six, and so on. I don't think anything should be given away for free, least of all blocks. Although there's a chance it's the equivalent of someone holding RMB in a random direction in cRPG, then that's fine, but it kind of sounded like something else. Many skill-based games have been ruined precisely because of the "let's give the newbs a helping hand against the good players" school of thought. And the most successful skill-based games are those where such gimmicks don't exist.

Sorry for the double post, but I really wanted to mention something. In medieval warfare, it's impossible to take on more than 3 or so people by yourself, they would easily overpower you. It's not Hollywood where someone singlehandedly defeats an army. Of course having teammates to help you out is the main idea. I think this new combat system is much more realistic than some other medieval games.

And this is simply not true. Not only does it defy common sense, but there are tons of accounts of people taking on "more than 3 or so people" by themselves.

[MeevarTheMighty]

I don't understand your problem with sprinting. It is not like ranged kiting was never a problem in cRPG. With sprinting added it would be exactly the same, only both sides can choose when to speed up. Stop pretending like Warband has a well thought-out movement system when it comes to kiting. Putting up your shield to block a single missile slows you down to a crawl, and then it takes 3 seconds before you reach full speed again, it is terrible. The only way they fixed it in Warband multiplayer is by giving the archer classes 0 athlethics. Even if this game would just allow fast movement while holding your shield up it would already be miles ahead in kiting prevention mechanics relative to Warband. Additionally you could make drawing a bow or reloading a crossbow cost a significant amount of stamina, so that you can never load your weapon and run away with a full bar.

Don't get your "low stamina isn't realistic" point at all either. I am pretty sure everybody who has done any physical activity is entirely familiar with muscle fatigue or being out of breath, making it difficult to control your movements, run or do any heavy lifting.

I'm quite sure that some people who've had to fight for their life wouldn't equate the experience with going for a run or lifting weights in any way. That said, everybody is different. That's the heart of why this kind of stamina system can never cater to everyone even if it could miraculously emulate how one person would react, which it can't.

You don't have to hold your shield up when the archer is running away and actively blocking with a shield isn't the only defense available to you in M&B. Your logic isn't. That said, group kiting in M&B is quite possible in some situations and can be very tedious. If you can imagine that amplified by the facts that by a. the enemy can achieve an extremely safe and unassailable distance to resume their attack within a few seconds and b. by giving chase, you are draining all of your stamina and you'll have to rest for some time at a disadvantage before you can think about chasing a second kiting archer.

That's not even the main problem with sprinting though. It's the fact that managing your stamina and sprinting around to gank people will be a more important skill than anything you do when you get there. If you've played WotR you might have a picture of what that looks like in a melee combat game and the type of play that it encourages.

[Golem]

Maybe separate stamina like this?

legs.....arms

Y

whole body

So at first you would drain stamina selectively and then after a certain point, it would start affecting other areas.

[Jacko]

Some good discussions going on here.

A couple of notes.

Something we've been talking about for a long time when it comes to the combat, is the concept of commitment. Once you've decided your action, you cannot retract, you are by designed forced to complete it. This goes through the entire spectrum of combat. A decision matters, and has consequences.

The reason we have stamina is to govern the combat mechanics we have. We did not introduce it for realism, but as a way for the player to control the gameplay. What we have now is a framework, the exact values will come from a lot more game testing.

In retrospect it is unfortunate that we started with 2 handers, they are by nature very duel centric.

Currently, a stance allow a player to strike from 3-4 different angles, usually all within the same 30 degree angle. This is by design. We can have more attack angles from a particular stance, if it makes bio-mechanical sense, so you could end up with a weapon that has 6 attack directions in a particular stance. It's a very modular system. There are even deeper mechanics that can "attack switch" a stance (think mastercuts), but that's another blog entirely.

Should mention that each class of weapon will have it's own take on stances, even within classes there will be a lot of differences (spears and poleaxes will behave very differently). This would simply not be possibly if we've stuck with the old 360 system, which was flawed in many ways.

Alright, enough rambling, carry on.
 

[Mr.K.]

Nice update on the sounds too, the echo on fighting yells make them really cool and immersive.

About the voip, did you plan to make it with a 3d position ? Like some plugins for arma or the system they use in the game "Squad" ?
Like in this video:

(click to show/hide)

This is what I wanted to know as well. It was possible in Warband as well with Mumble, but for whatever reason was really never implemented into cRPG. It can be used for either realism purposes where you could actually trash talk your opponent while fighting, or more teamwork orientated system where you can talk to people close to you, but only if they are on your team which is the option they chose in Project Reality mod for BF2 and now Squad. It adds a huge amount of immersion to be able to talk directly to the people next to you and it's something I've always missed in cRPG.

[Teeth]

- Auto-blocking if you have the right stance selected. If it takes more time to switch to a stance and attack than it does to attack in Warband, then it's going to make anything that isn't a duel very annoying. It might even make duels annoying, prolonging them needlessly by making the first attacks very easy to block until you've depleted your opponent's stamina.

Although there's a chance it's the equivalent of someone holding RMB in a random direction in cRPG, then that's fine, but it kind of sounded like something else.

As far as I got it, it is exactly like holding a random block in Warband. You can see which stance someone has and force a stance switch by doing a different attack.

I'm quite sure that some people who've had to fight for their life wouldn't equate the experience with going for a run or lifting weights in any way. That said, everybody is different. That's the heart of why this kind of stamina system can never cater to everyone even if it could miraculously emulate how one person would react, which it can't.

I don't see why stamina has to refer to the experience of fighting for your life, it should simply represent that doing certain physically demanding actions cannot be done endlessly, in a way that is experienced when you run or lift weights. Perhaps the timescale is a little smaller when it comes to recovery and loss of stamina, but otherwise it is exactly the same, experienced universally by real humans. Stamina bars have been around since sliced bread, and nobody complains about how they cannot relate to a video game character not being able to sprint endlessly or jump endlessly.

That's not even the main problem with sprinting though. It's the fact that managing your stamina and sprinting around to gank people will be a more important skill than anything you do when you get there. If you've played WotR you might have a picture of what that looks like in a melee combat game and the type of play that it encourages.

Now that gets to the heart of it. When you are outnumbered you should be able to not get rekt by your own stamina if you play well, but you are very right that your opponents will have always have an easier time managing theirs stamina and this could possibly allow them to always get at your back. Still, there are ways to mechanically limit sprinting to alleviate this problem, perhaps by seperating combat sprinting from out of combat sprinting. This point does require some careful thought.

[MacX85]

If there is VOIP there is no need for voicecommands anymore (i Guess).

Hopefully not... Not everybody uses VOIP or even has a mic plugged in when playing.
Also real people don't shout in an immersive way. It always sounds like teenage boys sitting on a computer emotionlessly talking about what they're gonna do next.

I want to have real manly shouts in the game that build up atmosphere.

Stamina bars have been around since sliced bread, and nobody complains about how they cannot relate to a video game character not being able to sprint endlessly or jump endlessly.

Whenever I watch footage from combat in Life is Feudal I get this feeling... it feels like the war of the elder people. Swing your weapon, run for two seconds, stop and take a deep breath. It looks ridiculous.
But Chivalry for instance did a good job with it imho.

[Golem]

Something we've been talking about for a long time when it comes to the combat, is the concept of commitment. Once you've decided your action, you cannot retract, you are by designed forced to complete it. This goes through the entire spectrum of combat. A decision matters, and has consequences.

Okay, you just sound stupid now. How will we feint? And don't tell me, it's going to be bound to a button.

[Mr_Sativa]

Veeeery interesting, great work! Thanks for you replies in the thread as well, the dream is coming true 

[korppis]

Something we've been talking about for a long time when it comes to the combat, is the concept of commitment. Once you've decided your action, you cannot retract, you are by designed forced to complete it. This goes through the entire spectrum of combat. A decision matters, and has consequences.

The reason we have stamina is to govern the combat mechanics we have. We did not introduce it for realism, but as a way for the player to control the gameplay. What we have now is a framework, the exact values will come from a lot more game testing.

Hmm, but won't you already make a huge commitment by just choosing your armor and weapon. Picking up heavy plate and maul quarantees that you will be vulnerable to ganks and unable to flee. Light armor sort of makes it more risky to join a group fight, but allows (and should allow) more control on 1vs1's and allows choosing your fights. I don't quite get it what stamina adds to gameplay that these gear&weapon stats don't already give? If it was just used for sprinting cooldown, that'd be fine imo.

I can imagine that it will slow down battles a lot, since after a moment of fighting people will just have to stand still and wait for stamina to build back up. Another concern if you consider a battle where one team is holding a hill: They already have a huge advantage to begin with and sure won't go anywhere. How does it affect on balance if the team attacking that hill have to run up, take hits from arrows and end up being unable to fight properly because they got drained of stamina? Also, does it treat light armored players fair if every small cut or so will drain them?

[BeastSVK]

Once you've decided your action, you cannot retract, you are by designed forced to complete it. This goes through the entire spectrum of combat.
consequences.

This sound like locking into target and not being able to unlock it feels like playing witcher on xbox 

[Sultan Eren]

Don't know how up-to-date this still is, but it should give you some idea of the scale.

I also wonder the updates to the older videos such as stronghold.

You know the game is polished and updated now even the game mode is no more valid.

[MeevarTheMighty]

Something we've been talking about for a long time when it comes to the combat, is the concept of commitment. Once you've decided your action, you cannot retract, you are by designed forced to complete it. This goes through the entire spectrum of combat. A decision matters, and has consequences.

This is spooky. Are you saying feinting could be out?

The reason we have stamina is to govern the combat mechanics we have. We did not introduce it for realism, but as a way for the player to control the gameplay. What we have now is a framework, the exact values will come from a lot more game testing.

Want to elaborate? It seems like stamina will almost by definition restrict gameplay decisions, since less is possible when under its effect.

[MacX85]

I also wonder the updates to the older videos such as stronghold.

You know the game is polished and updated now even the game mode is no more valid.

Pretty sure the old game modes are gone with the announcement of "epic". Wouldn't make much sense to spend energy towards other minor game modes, I guess.

[Golem]

Pretty sure the old game modes are gone with the announcement of "epic". Wouldn't make much sense to spend energy towards other minor game modes, I guess.

You haven't been paying much attention, were you?