Dev Blog #5 Combat

[Krave]

How combat will look with other weapon types? We see only 2hs in devblog. I guess 1h will be similiar, but I can't really imagine polearms with stances. Do stances apply to 1h/shield too?

[chadz]

IMO you should have all the attack directions in any stance accesible by just one click, but make the animation a bit longer if the character has to switch.

Had that exact system before, we changed it because it didn't work. The game is pretty fast, and having slightly slower attacks gets you killed, and happened very often unintentionally. Maybe you will be able to make it work like that with a skill if you really want, we'll see once we implement them.

[BeastSVK]

Implementing stamina may have advantages and disadvantages.. first of all u need to look at fact that simple peasant guys back then was not siting behind computer all day ..they were either working on fields, cuting down trees or haveing other physical demanding labor.. thus have a lot of stamina not just for three or four swings .. or on the other side there were guys with weapon training trained in art of swordsmanship etc. they trained not only skill but also stamina .. so all in all few swings for medieval guy was not that exhaustive, so if u guys want implement stamina u should take this things into account...nice idea could be implementing wound fatigue once hit u become slower and your attacks are weaker..its someting logical.. and it could balance heavy and light armor...heavy armor will protect you from being hurt that much so it will also protect your stamina..on other hand having light armor u will have less stamina consumption but once hit your are weaker u move slower..all this things depend on what kind of game u want deliver ..if u want game for casual gamers or historical enthusiasts..and sorry but dumbing down combat for sake of being more accesible for new players is bullshit  . Is should be like u sad in kickstarter trailer ..u will dies a lot but it will keep u playing so u can become better and rape veterans and become one of them ...not the other way around.. this post is just some loud thinking of me ..

[Golem]

Had that exact system before, we changed it because it didn't work. The game is pretty fast, and having slightly slower attacks gets you killed, and happened very often unintentionally. Maybe you will be able to make it work like that with a skill if you really want, we'll see once we implement them.

Watched the vid a few times, again. It does look very fluid. Can't wait for the alpha.

Implementing stamina may have advantages and disadvantages.. first of all u need to look at fact that simple peasant guys back then was not siting behind computer all day ..they were either working on fields, cuting down trees or haveing other physical demanding labor.. thus have a lot of stamina not just for three or four swings .. or on the other side there were guys with weapon training trained in art of swordsmanship etc. they trained not only skill but also stamina .. so all in all few swings for medieval guy was not that exhaustive, so if u guys want implement stamina u should take this things into account...nice idea could be implementing wound fatigue once hit u become slower and your attacks are weaker..its someting logical.. and it could balance heavy and light armor...heavy armor will protect you from being hurt that much so it will also protect your stamina..on other hand having light armor u will have less stamina consumption but once hit your are weaker u move slower..all this things depend on what kind of game u want deliver ..if u want game for casual gamers or historical enthusiasts..and sorry but dumbing down combat for sake of being more accesible for new players is bullshit  . Is should be like u sad in kickstarter trailer ..u will dies a lot but it will keep u playing so u can become better and rape veterans and become one of them ...not the other way around.. this post is just some loud thinking of me ..

Keep in mind, that this is as much a simulator as it is an RPG. Actually, it's a more on the RPG side, so I imagine the amount of and drain of stamina will be quite customizable, depending on your build.

[MacX85]

One question I'm still unclear about:

You were saying you change your stance by holding rmb plus mouse movement. But also active parry will be initiated by rmb plus mouse movement. Will this not get into conflict?

[Gaz.Spencer]

Glad I'm not the only one immediately struck by how lame this sounds for any scenario with three or more players: both the stamina and the stance system.

Don't get me wrong, the system is impressive and I can see a lot of thought has gone into it, but I get the impression that the thought has been 100% looking at 1v1 situations. Maybe I've misunderstood, but if you have to change stance to parry every direction of attack and there's a delay to change stance, it only takes two people using different stances to easily destroy you with nothing you can do about it. In this light, it's easy to see how sprinting (to and from ganks), even if it restricts your viability in a 1v1, will be the main game here, not any sort of combat proficiency.

The stamina system also just generally rewards and excuses players for hanging back and cherry-picking (read: leeching, delaying) instead of participating, even if that's mitigated by basic combat not being slowed by low stamina. I have a similar concern about equipment breakage, which was mentioned in the video. It sounds like doing the right thing in combat still punishes you by slowly draining your stamina; will the same thing be true of equipment damage or will only incorrect actions damage equipment?

When you add ranged combat into the equation, if you get to a nest of archers, they will immediately disperse with sprint and shoot you from all directions. There's a good reason sprinting isn't in M&B. It just isn't a good feature for this sort of game.

If you watched any of the bannerlord devblogs, you would notice that they too have added sprinting. Can you sprint in real life? I'm sure you could if someone was trying to kill you.

For stamina- maybe stamina could only be drained by bad blocks, sprinting, and heavy attacks, so that players can use normal attacks without too much penalty. Also since it's a RPGish game, will you be able to increase a characters stamina?

[Varadin]

Don't like it, but wont judge too much until i try it.

[Teeth]

What is great about this system is that you have addressed most of the things that make Warband look absolutely ridiculous. With some animation polishing and collision detection improvements, this will look way more sensible. First of all, movement-wise. I really like the slow deliberate default movement, but with the option to speed up if you choose to sprint. That is a bit of extra control that Warband could have used, but it has to be restricted by stamina. No more abusing jump if you need a slight speed boost in combat, or pressing W for 3 seconds before you start running fast (lol). Second of all blocking. No more stopping a swing dead by holding a weapon to the side, that is not how physics work. Some collision detection issues aside, every block here looks much more sensible. Also the stances forming the starting point of both attacking and blocking makes the combat look much more fluid.

What I potentially like is that doing the correct parries will force your opponent in the opposite stance, making it more difficult for him to do anything but a basic parry, and thus draining his stamina. I hope that inside that mechanic can potentially lie the solution to never-ending fights which has become noticable in Warband. People take way too long to kill at the current average skill level, and two good and careful players can duel for minutes on end. However, this should all be balanced correctly, with keeping both teamfights and duels in mind, and hopefully allowing for a very proficient and smart player to have a chance in nearly any situation against worse players. I really like the idea that consistent perfect play in a duel will eventually force your opponent to lose because you create openings with your parries, much like real fencing, unless he of course plays as perfectly.

Now I just hope you will pay a lot of attention to making this work for fighting multiple opponents, can't judge that now. I hope you will never forget that fighting when outnumbered should never be a sure death for the skillful and clever, otherwise the game becomes a steamroll contest like cRPG has become more and more over the years with increasing average skill.

Some questions and confusions I have, if anyone cares:

• Switching stances and actively parrying, what does the player input for that require? Double RMB with a direction? If you just attacked from the right-side stance, is it possible to then switch to the left-side stance and do an active parry on an attack coming from that direction? Or will you always be able to passively parry at best, regardless of your lightning speed?
  
  
• Do active parries still have a timing element to them?
  
  
• Is it possible to do multiple active parries on multiple opponents, and thus retain stamina and survive, if I am the perfect player? Effectively defending yourself with little penalty against multiple opponents should in my opinion always be an option, very difficult, but possible.
  
  
• Is there still physical blocking in the game, as in, if your weapon is in the way of an attack, it will block regardless of its block direction/stance? In a more limited sense, can I parry attacks with the opposite stance if my opponent is far to one side, like you can for example block left swings with a left block if your opponent is far to your left in Warband. Very useful in groupfights.
  
  
• Any thoughts on the implementation of stab-only weapons, and on how to avoid Warband's perma-downblock and close-up stabbing issues?

[Uther Pendragon]

I like what I am seeing, I am a bit worried about how stamina will work out but it doesn't seem too limiting. Stances and they way they seem to work are fluid and very satisfying to watch, but I will judge that when I can test it myself.

[Sandersson Jankins]

Boy, Teeth posted a concise and cogent piece of nerd analysis as he tends to do above me. I +1'd that shit.

Anyway, I've got plenty of things floating around my head as a result of watching that video. I'll share one of them that seems to be relevant with the discussion on stamina.

I'm wary (maybe not as many as some of the FUCK STAMINA crowd) of stamina as a mechanic, mostly for reasons that others have outlined. I'm concerned about the effects on group combat (although having to cycle fresh troops because someone just got beat to shit and cant breathe is interesting for MUH IMMERSION purposes which I fucking love), the effects on duels, and the effect on general feel or plausibility of what your character is doing. As others have said, my fellow in-game presumably has a fair set of muscles and sturdy bones, owed to his total lack of internet exposure. And shit like running water or electricity. Anywho, I am in no way keen on the idea of taking 3 or 4 large swings with a reasonably-sized weapon, only to be paralyzed for period of time by the severe buildup of lactic acid in my calf muscles or something.

Here's something I think may be interesting.

Keep a stamina system, but make it rather forgiving at high or especially perfect health. Some dude without a scratch on his body nor an ounce of effort exerted should be able to be nice and fit for combat. Besides that, someone that has exerted a fair amount of effort but has sustained no combat injuries (or, uh...falling off a cliff and busting an ankle or something) should be fairly responsive and ept as well.

Now, someone with a gnarly prod to the guts with a spear ain't gonna be moving so fast. Of course, this is a video game and we shouldn't (nor will you) attempt to portray some poor motherfucker taking one hit to the stomach, becoming disembowled and falling into the grime where he dies over a period of hours in agony. Realism is a nice guideline, and it makes shit look real cool, but naturally we can't go overboard here.

Even so, the concept of battle damage being tied to stamina regen and/or capacity is interesting. Even more interesting is battle damage being tied to a wholly new classification of stat, significantly hindering some facet of combat when high. It always sat with me just fine that in cRPG a fellow could survive a couple axe whacks and some arrows (or more, of course). I never did appreciate the fact that this severely injured character can perform just as well as a pristine one.

I'm obviously not so good at laying out concise points or formats, but TLDR: I recommend weakening the effect of stamina on combat ability and adding effects based upon battle damage/wounding (perhaps even in certain areas; a wound to the arm hitbox makes you swing slower but one to the footsies will make you hobble)

[chadz]

Teetholosophy

That covers nearly exactly our thought process.

[matt2507]

Nice update on the sounds too, the echo on fighting yells make them really cool and immersive.

About the voip, did you plan to make it with a 3d position ? Like some plugins for arma or the system they use in the game "Squad" ?
Like in this video:

(click to show/hide)

[Maestro]

I would like to see in next update some maps or big map for the big game mode.
I want to know aproximatelly how will look maps in this game.

[Doppel]

I just want to say that I like the addition of Stamina. It gives the gameplay more depth and make you consider different weapons for different situations.

I guess some people are people are bummed about the fact that they can't choose a great sword and fight like someone with a short sword anymore.

[Gaz.Spencer]

Was it just me, or was there am animation where a character would hold his hand on his body when he got hit? That animation looked very short, although I'm unsure till I've tested, but combining that with a realsitic staggering back, it would look awesome. Although to keep it from being a huge disadvantage, you should still be able to block while you stagger back.

Some people mentioned that a stamina bar ruins immersion, and I must say, I agree. Maybe to show stamina, the character could start breathing rapidly, and get worse to show stamina drain. Another thought I had about stamina, is that maybe there could be a sort of 'soft' stamina drain, and when that runs out, it begins to damage 'hard' stamina drain. This idea came 100% from H&H's hitpoint system. Combined with the heavy breathing, maybe a character could say something to indicate the loss of stamina. This worked well in 'The Long Dark' where there where no health bars, or stamina, only what the character said to help you know their status.

Also is a health bar really necessary? It seems to ruin immersion and makes the game very arcade looking (I do realise that almost every game has a health bar). Project Reality, and some other games, made the screen slightly blurry with blood around the edges to indicate health, and to be honest, this feels much better.

About heaving attacks- I must say, the idea of them being slower than a normal attack seems dumb. Maybe the delay in getting back to the neutral position should be affected, but if more power = more speed.

Something else I noticed, is that the exact same animation is used for every block, or weapon collision etc. maybe there could be 3 or more slightly different animations, that can be played at random. I'm sure you've already thought of all these things.

In the video, I saw on the Whiteboard you guys had some things listed. I saw REMOVE next to stamina. 


edit: wow -3 for a double post... Never again shall I do that....