Author Topic: Dev Blog #5 Combat  (Read 85171 times)

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Offline The_Bloody_Nine

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Re: Dev Blog #5 Combat
« Reply #60 on: February 20, 2016, 10:30:21 pm »
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I'm glad you answered one of my questions, though I didn't understand a word from your new Irish devmember  :D

Will rewatch and try to decipher...

Offline MacX85

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Re: Dev Blog #5 Combat
« Reply #61 on: February 20, 2016, 10:34:09 pm »
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Also is a health bar really necessary? It seems to ruin immersion and makes the game very arcade looking (I do realise that almost every game has a health bar). Project Reality, and some other games, made the screen slightly blurry with blood around the edges to indicate health, and to be honest, this feels much better.

I think we could start by hiding the bars when they're not needed. There is a mod for Skyrim... "more immersive hud" or something like that where you'll see nothing but the environment unless you get hit, or sprint or freeze. Then the according bar is shown, first subtly and then more opaque the more the values drain. I find this to be perfect both for immersion and visibility.

Offline The_Bloody_Nine

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Re: Dev Blog #5 Combat
« Reply #62 on: February 20, 2016, 10:35:32 pm »
+1
Stamina to me has always been a big no no as it just restricts gameplay. It may work in a one on one where you can manage it but fighting multiple opponents for multiple minutes in a battle situation just sounds horrible.

The way I understood it you should do fine fighting multiple opponents if you act smart and don't waste energy with unnecessary sprints and heavy attacks. Really hard to judge though like said if you haven't actually played it.

Offline MacX85

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Re: Dev Blog #5 Combat
« Reply #63 on: February 20, 2016, 10:44:30 pm »
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The way I understood it you should do fine fighting multiple opponents if you act smart and don't waste energy with unnecessary sprints and heavy attacks. Really hard to judge though like said if you haven't actually played it.

I can say that for Chivalry. At least in earlier versions... I haven't played it in ages. Noobs would be swinging mindlessly until they eventually ran out of stamina whereas I ducked or dodged their swings until there was the right time to swiftly attack. I always welcomed stamina in this game.

Offline Yeldur

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Re: Dev Blog #5 Combat
« Reply #64 on: February 20, 2016, 10:51:45 pm »
+1
That raises a question actually, will you still be able to chamber? I don't think I could go without my ability to chamber couched lances. It's the one fun thing I made out of fighting cavalry, if it's gone then I have nothing but sadness when I fight cav ;-;


EDIT: I just thought of something FAR more important, will there be an animation? I'm not sure I could live without our Krems spamfests, I MUST BE ABLE TO SCREAM "THE ENEMY IS INSIDE OUR BASE THE ENEMY IS INSIDE OUR BASE THE ENEMY IS INSIDE OUR BASE THE ENEMY IS INSIDE OUR BASE THE ENEMY IS INSIDE OUR BASE THE ENEMY IS INSIDE OUR BASE" repeatedly or I officially denounce this game   :evil:
« Last Edit: February 20, 2016, 10:56:41 pm by Yeldur »
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Offline Utrakil

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Re: Dev Blog #5 Combat
« Reply #65 on: February 20, 2016, 11:03:48 pm »
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If there is VOIP there is no need for voicecommands anymore (i Guess).
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Offline Rebelyell

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Re: Dev Blog #5 Combat
« Reply #66 on: February 20, 2016, 11:14:52 pm »
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I agree with Teeth, There is way too much weird and really stupid mechanics in warband engine when someone looks in to it. He pointed out some of them but I find way more silly things in game mechanics.

For me duel meta in crpg nowadays is about some animation breaking feints and spamming/hiltslasches. Chambers are close to useless against good players and it is really easy to counter them. I really hope system that you work on will be more about fight and less about breaking the game animations of whatever else to score a hit. Best example of that is famous mcro(?) feint of Spamwhore(Jako or Fin probably can you tell more about that).

I like idea of stance in theory but I wonder how that will work in big fights.
It also rise one more question in my head, how stabs will work, I can see that in 1v1 fights but I am more intrested in larger scale.
I really hope there will be no way to turn and conect them like we can now in warband/crpg.

So far I really happy with your progres guys.



« Last Edit: February 20, 2016, 11:21:01 pm by Rebelyell »
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Offline Sagar

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Re: Dev Blog #5 Combat
« Reply #67 on: February 21, 2016, 12:16:50 am »
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Looks really good. Especially like implementing stamina in combat system  :D
Some players are worried about combat with stamina, but I think they just "scared" to try something new.
Even older games have stamina, for example - Blade of Darkness (from 2001.)
For me, one of the greatest handicap in Warband is lack of stamina.
I think that stamina does not restricting gameplay, but make it more immersive and makes you play smarter.

Keep up the good work!

Offline MeevarTheMighty

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Re: Dev Blog #5 Combat
« Reply #68 on: February 21, 2016, 12:25:20 am »
+2
If you watched any of the bannerlord devblogs, you would notice that they too have added sprinting. Can you sprint in real life? I'm sure you could if someone was trying to kill you.

For stamina- maybe stamina could only be drained by bad blocks, sprinting, and heavy attacks, so that players can use normal attacks without too much penalty. Also since it's a RPGish game, will you be able to increase a characters stamina?

If Bannerlord has sprinting, that's its problem.

A medical specialist recently told me that nobody understands what really causes exhaustion irl. It can't be measured and is pretty much a complete mystery. A doctor can not tell if a person feels tired. It seems like tiredness can be sort of crudely bypassed with adrenaline etc, but even those parts of the system that are somewhat understood work very organically and can't be properly simulated by people who actually know what they're doing. For that reason, when a character breaks down from "low stamina" in-game, the player can't relate to it, because the player would not behave in a remotely similar way in the same situation. Now, the player would also not behave in the same way as someone with endless energy and vigour, but that difference is quiet whereas being affected by "low stamina" will certainly draw your attention to the disconnect. Long story short: stamina in games does not approach realism and is unimmersive.

Maybe if you're a robot that wants to know what it feels like to be a human, it's a different story, but as a human, it feels robotic and forced.

That's realism out of the way, but realism isn't my gripe with it, gameplay is. In a game where player A and player B are to shoot each other from any range, sprinting is a good feature. In a game where player A must be at the same position as player B to prevail, it is not a good feature. Imo it's a feature that could turn out to be a defining feature of the game and not in a good way.

Remember that irl, most of the losers escaped most battles completely unscathed. A lot of front line soldiers didn't see combat. That's not the game we want to play.

Warband has a lot of things wrong with it, but the approach in making it was first and foremost, to have a competitive multiplayer game and in that, it was successful. I want to know if that is a goal here. If it is, I don't know how the team thinks that goal will be achieved around the problems that we've pointed out.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2016, 12:28:41 am by MeevarTheMighty »

Offline Byrdi

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Re: Dev Blog #5 Combat
« Reply #69 on: February 21, 2016, 12:54:07 am »
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That covers nearly exactly our thought process.

What do you mean exactly by this in regards to the interplay between individual skill and teamplay?
Obviously, you have thought about it but what are your actual plans for balancing those two aspects?

As Teeth kind of hinted it seems from the video that you are skewing more in the direction of teamplay compared to M&B/cRPG.
This is of course your choice to make. Though I would say from my subjective view having a game that allows you to play by yourself and not be completely reliant on your team (good or bad) is the most enjoyable.
The helpless feeling of dying to a gank round after round because your team isn't playing well or more often because the teams are unbalanced is quite unbearable.
This even happens a lot in present cRPG despite the fact that you can run away from most fights, swing endlessly when being ganked, block every hit (if good/fast enough) and a few other things that favour individual skill.

The other aspects of combat seem quite interesting. Especially the idea of forcing your opponent into certain stances and so forth.
Though I guess we will have to try it ourselves to fully understand it.

A few random questions:
  • Do you plan on changing animations/sounds/etc. for the different levels of fatigue/stamina?
    It could be a good way to read your opponent if you could get an approximate understanding of how much stamina he has left.
  • What is this about equipment degradation? Does this mean that your equipment can break while fighting on the battlefield? Or is it more like cRPG where you just pay for repairs depending on how much it has been worn down?
  • Lastly, could you maybe for the next time you show combat do a small recording of gameplay and mouse movement side-by-side?
    In this way we can maybe get a better understanding of the controls input in general :)


Offline Leshma

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Re: Dev Blog #5 Combat
« Reply #70 on: February 21, 2016, 01:01:17 am »
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I agree with Teeth, There is way too much weird and really stupid mechanics in warband engine when someone looks in to it. He pointed out some of them but I find way more silly things in game mechanics.

Warband is truly great and fun game to play but combat looks strange, even though it is more realistic than in similar games. If you're still actively playing Warband on daily basis you won't be able to notice that because you're used to it. But fights look odd, mainly because of the way players react when hit. Also because of possible arm/torso movements you can pull of in a game which are impossible in reality.

Games need to ignore "feedback" when hit because if it were done in realistic manner one hit would be very debilitating. Still would like to see game designer brave enough to pick that route in medieval combat simulator. Trading blows should be possible only if armor is capable of negating impact of a weapon. Taking hits or being parried in such a way that energy of your strike is traded back to you should drain your stamina faster than attacking like a madman or sprinting in full armor, and should also be slower to recover. Of course this is theory crafting and maybe they tried to implement it but didn't work out.

Chase obviously wants more of good old Warband/cRPG 2H style, whirlwind through masses who can't block and stuff like that. Many people wants that. But think that number of those who like something more realistic isn't small either.

Offline Micah

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Re: Dev Blog #5 Combat
« Reply #71 on: February 21, 2016, 01:08:23 am »
+1
Oh well ... Looks like, only now after rewatching the vid, I think i really comprehended the idea behind changing stances on stronger strikes  :oops: which sounds like it should feel pretty cool and natural ... and i kinda really like it!... cant wait to try it out  :)
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Offline Teeth

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Re: Dev Blog #5 Combat
« Reply #72 on: February 21, 2016, 01:40:25 am »
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(click to show/hide)
I don't understand your problem with sprinting. It is not like ranged kiting was never a problem in cRPG. With sprinting added it would be exactly the same, only both sides can choose when to speed up. Stop pretending like Warband has a well thought-out movement system when it comes to kiting. Putting up your shield to block a single missile slows you down to a crawl, and then it takes 3 seconds before you reach full speed again, it is terrible. The only way they fixed it in Warband multiplayer is by giving the archer classes 0 athlethics. Even if this game would just allow fast movement while holding your shield up it would already be miles ahead in kiting prevention mechanics relative to Warband. Additionally you could make drawing a bow or reloading a crossbow cost a significant amount of stamina, so that you can never load your weapon and run away with a full bar.

Don't get your "low stamina isn't realistic" point at all either. I am pretty sure everybody who has done any physical activity is entirely familiar with muscle fatigue or being out of breath, making it difficult to control your movements, run or do any heavy lifting.

About heaving attacks
This sounded awesome on my first read, but what I imagined is probably not what you meant.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2016, 01:45:40 am by Teeth »

Offline Gaz.Spencer

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Re: Dev Blog #5 Combat
« Reply #73 on: February 21, 2016, 03:17:21 am »
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I don't understand your problem with sprinting. It is not like ranged kiting was never a problem in cRPG. With sprinting added it would be exactly the same, only both sides can choose when to speed up. Stop pretending like Warband has a well thought-out movement system when it comes to kiting. Putting up your shield to block a single missile slows you down to a crawl, and then it takes 3 seconds before you reach full speed again, it is terrible. The only way they fixed it in Warband multiplayer is by giving the archer classes 0 athlethics. Even if this game would just allow fast movement while holding your shield up it would already be miles ahead in kiting prevention mechanics relative to Warband. Additionally you could make drawing a bow or reloading a crossbow cost a significant amount of stamina, so that you can never load your weapon and run away with a full bar.

Don't get your "low stamina isn't realistic" point at all either. I am pretty sure everybody who has done any physical activity is entirely familiar with muscle fatigue or being out of breath, making it difficult to control your movements, run or do any heavy lifting.
This sounded awesome on my first read, but what I imagined is probably not what you meant.

I meant heavy, and what I meant is that the swing is faster, and does more damage, but the time it takes to get the weapon back into a neutral position should be longer, so that its about trade offs, and won't be OP

Offline Golem

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Re: Dev Blog #5 Combat
« Reply #74 on: February 21, 2016, 03:43:39 am »
+1
I would like to see in next update some maps or big map for the big game mode.
I want to know aproximatelly how will look maps in this game.
Don't know how up-to-date this still is, but it should give you some idea of the scale.
This is about being straight out retarded. Children see in slow motion like owls.