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Author Topic: Another school shooting in Murrica (Oregon edition)  (Read 34904 times)

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Offline Utrakil

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Re: Another school shooting in Murrica (Oregon edition)
« Reply #210 on: October 05, 2015, 04:55:53 pm »
0
« Last Edit: October 05, 2015, 05:00:49 pm by Utrakil »
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Offline Clockworkkiller

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Re: Another school shooting in Murrica (Oregon edition)
« Reply #211 on: October 05, 2015, 06:24:46 pm »
+2
Here is a beautifull graph comparing american death by terrorism VS american death by firearms.
http://edition.cnn.com/2015/10/02/us/oregon-shooting-terrorism-gun-violence/index.html?sr=tw100215gun%20terrorism%20graph1007AMVODtop&linkId=17541596&sr=tw100215obamaguns1050AMVODtop&linkId=17542133
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The truth about gun deaths: numbers and actual solutions

When the President went on television after the Oregon college mass shooting he issued a challenge to the media. He asked them to show America the number of gun deaths as compared to the number of terrorism related deaths since the 9/11 attacks. The media dutifully complied and soon every network, newspaper and magazine was putting up startling graphics, such as this one [pic related] tweeted by CNN.

These graphics and figures were almost uniformly followed by comments about the mass shooting and the "pressing need" for background checks and other gun control laws. Unfortunately, all of these numbers flashing around were dishonestly offered up with no context or details. As it turns out, however, the real numbers are available from a variety of sources including the FBI and the CDC, among others, so let's take a look at them. It takes federal agencies a long time to compile and publish their statistics, so the last full set of data we have is from 2011 and the figures can shed a lot of light on exactly how mendacious gun control advocates are being with these studies.

First of all, look at the number of gun deaths on that chart from 2011. It's 32,351. That's a lot of gun deaths to be sure. So that's the total number of murders by gun owners, right? The answer is not only Hell No, but it's not even remotely close. It's true that this figure is close to the total number of human lives ended in incidents involving a gun, but that's all incidents. So how did those deaths happen?

Straight from the CDC where most of the media is drawing their numbers (while not as good of a source as the FBI or the Justice Department) we can find out that of those 32,352 gun deaths, 21,175 of them were suicides. That leaves us with 11,177 deaths to account for. But as it turns out, the FBI records that 8,583 deaths were murders of various sorts involving guns of all types. The remaining roughly 2,500 were accounted for by accidents and unintentional injuries. These include hunting accidents, toddlers getting hold of unsecured weapons and shooting somebody or just plain idiots who proved Darwin right.

Before we move on, those FBI numbers deserve a closer look for a moment since we're on the subject. What sorts of guns are used in actual crimes? I bring this up because each mass shooting elicits renewed calls for an "assault weapons" ban on guns like the AR-15 style rifle. Are those popular in crimes? Check out the figures [pic related] from the FBI report.

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Take a good look at those numbers. Of the actual 8,583 gun murders committed in 2011, 323 were committed with "rifles." And that's all rifles, including bolt action, deer hunting rifles and all the rest. The number committed with so called "assault rifles" were a fraction of that. When you ask how dangerous those rifles are, compare that to nearly 1,700 who were stabbed as well as nearly 500 murdered with blunt objects and and more than 700 beaten to death by somebody with their bare hands. Enough said on that topic.

So we're down to 8,583 intentional killings using guns. That's still one heck of a lot of bodies, and surely enough to justify new background checks and other restrictions on legal gun purchases, right? Again... not even close. The Justice Department has been studying the question of legal vs. illegal sources of guns used in crimes for decades, going back to this study issued in the early nineties. They admit that the numbers are simply too hard to track for us to pin down exact figures, but the trends are steady over the years. The vast majority of guns used in crimes were gotten through illegal means outside the legal purchase regimen followed by law abiding gun owners. Roughly one quarter of inmates convicted of gun crimes admitted to having stolen a gun in that study. For the ones that weren't stolen directly, another 2004 study showed that 40% of convicts bought their guns on the black market and another 37% got them through the "gray market" in various illegal methods.

Accidents account for too many deaths and that's a place where responsible gun owners must always strive to improve in terms of educating the public. The NRA does some great work in this area, but there are still too many people making careless, stupid mistakes which wind up costing somebody their life. Also, the number of stolen guns can be cut down if more owners take the necessary precautions to make it harder for thieves to steal their weapons from their homes and automobiles.

As to the big ticket media item of real criminals committing murders and other crimes with guns, we've identified the lion's share of those above. They are buying guns illegally because they can get away with it. That's already illegal. The answer here isn't new laws to restrict the law abiding who aren't going to be committing crimes in the first place. We need to be enforcing the laws we already have. Get more resources on the job to find and confiscate illegal weapons from criminals. Stop hampering the police with politically correct restrictions and let them get back to the broken windows, stop and frisk, see something say something approach which finds guns in the hands of common criminals before they are used in a murder. We have laws on the books against all these things. We're just not enforcing them.

There you have it. Problem explained and solutions offered. My liberal friends are now invited to tell me exactly what else you'd like us to do if you're not willing to take these vary basic steps toward correcting the actual problem which you seem so concerned over. Unless, of course, you don't actually care about the problem and are only looking for an excuse to flush the Second Amendment down the social justice drain.
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Offline Jeade

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Re: Another school shooting in Murrica (Oregon edition)
« Reply #212 on: October 05, 2015, 06:31:26 pm »
+1
I think being poor is not an excuse to shoot people but it is a without a doubt an important factor, as you have less to lose.

Out here in SF, specifically the Tenderloin, we have a major problem with the homeless and drug users, and the issue is being compounded due to gentrification (tech industry).
SF is currently looking to double the number of walls that "spray back pee."
Here's a map of human waste reports in the city over the last few years, as well.

Not only are there not enough public toilets, but there are plenty of people who can't get any lower and don't give a fuck anymore.
The Tenderloin also has the most crime, and--what a surprise--the worst poverty.

But, this is all beside the topic of school shootings.
Active shooter events are largely white males, so it's probably best when arguing about active shooter related gun violence to leave racism out of the mix.

(click to show/hide)

This isn't useful information here.
It'd be far more insightful to have detailed information on active shooter events (which can be found in the FBI document linked above).

My liberal friends are now invited to tell me exactly what else you'd like us to do if you're not willing to take these vary basic steps toward correcting the actual problem which you seem so concerned over.

Liberal friend, here. You've done a fucking excellent job.
Thank you for this post!
« Last Edit: October 05, 2015, 06:37:31 pm by Jeade »
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Offline Kafein

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Re: Another school shooting in Murrica (Oregon edition)
« Reply #213 on: October 05, 2015, 07:11:22 pm »
+5
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Oberyn in every off topic thread.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2015, 07:17:22 pm by Kafein »

Offline Xant

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Re: Another school shooting in Murrica (Oregon edition)
« Reply #214 on: October 05, 2015, 07:26:05 pm »
+2
SF is currently looking to double the number of walls that "spray back pee."

This shit is mindblowing. Yeah, let's spend tons of money on walls that spray back pee, so that instead of people urinating on the walls they'll make big urine puddles on the street next to the wall.
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Offline Overdriven

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Re: Another school shooting in Murrica (Oregon edition)
« Reply #215 on: October 05, 2015, 07:26:43 pm »
0
So we're down to 8,583 intentional killings using guns. That's still one heck of a lot of bodies, and surely enough to justify new background checks and other restrictions on legal gun purchases, right? Again... not even close. The Justice Department has been studying the question of legal vs. illegal sources of guns used in crimes for decades, going back to this study issued in the early nineties. They admit that the numbers are simply too hard to track for us to pin down exact figures, but the trends are steady over the years. The vast majority of guns used in crimes were gotten through illegal means outside the legal purchase regimen followed by law abiding gun owners. Roughly one quarter of inmates convicted of gun crimes admitted to having stolen a gun in that study. For the ones that weren't stolen directly, another 2004 study showed that 40% of convicts bought their guns on the black market and another 37% got them through the "gray market" in various illegal methods.

Interesting post but rather ruined but this paragraph. Hard numbers for everything but then it simply quotes a 'study' that says 40% of convicts used illegal guns. That's like pulling statistic out of my arse without anything to back it up. So ignoring that, you've still got 8583 intentional killings with guns.

Far too fucking many.

However, I can get on board with:

Quote
We need to be enforcing the laws we already have. Get more resources on the job to find and confiscate illegal weapons from criminals. Stop hampering the police with politically correct restrictions and let them get back to the broken windows, stop and frisk, see something say something approach which finds guns in the hands of common criminals before they are used in a murder. We have laws on the books against all these things. We're just not enforcing them.

As this is something the UK sorely needs as well.

Offline cup457

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Re: Another school shooting in Murrica (Oregon edition)
« Reply #216 on: October 05, 2015, 07:29:49 pm »
0
assault rifles and other large weapons are almost never used in crimes because how the fuck are you supposed hide an ak or even hold one without every motherucker calling the cops on you.

Dude, there's a reason you were classified "mentally unstable."

im glad you ignored everything to quote the state I live in and insult me.

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Offline Kafein

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Re: Another school shooting in Murrica (Oregon edition)
« Reply #217 on: October 05, 2015, 07:31:54 pm »
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"Criminals don't follow gun laws" is such a ridiculous statement anyway. So they just walk around with unregistered machineguns and when the police wants their license they just go "nope sir I'm a criminal you can't arrest me!"?

Offline cup457

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Re: Another school shooting in Murrica (Oregon edition)
« Reply #218 on: October 05, 2015, 07:33:59 pm »
0
Interesting post but rather ruined but this paragraph. Hard numbers for everything but then it simply quotes a 'study' that says 40% of convicts used illegal guns. That's like pulling statistic out of my arse without anything to back it up. So ignoring that, you've still got 8583 intentional killings with guns.

Current population of the US is ~320 million

8583/320,000,000 is 0.00002

According the CDC there are around 4m children born each year in the US
Now im not saying that 8583 death is insignificant, but im just trying to put it in perspective
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Offline cup457

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Re: Another school shooting in Murrica (Oregon edition)
« Reply #219 on: October 05, 2015, 07:39:29 pm »
0
"Criminals don't follow gun laws" is such a ridiculous statement anyway. So they just walk around with unregistered machineguns and when the police wants their license they just go "nope sir I'm a criminal you can't arrest me!"?
In the US it is difficult to get machine guns (fully automatic weapons). The ATF (federal) gives out class 3 licences if you fill out their paperwork, and im fairly certain they need fingerprints, drivers licences, address and such. Also not having registered weapons varies by state. Virginia does not require any firearm purhased in private sales, usually referred to as the gun show loophole, so none my my unregistered fire arms are illegal, and in my state you can purchase any non-machinegun weapon at 18 in private sales. Since federal law overrides state in a non private sale you have to be 21 to buy a handgun, and it is difficult to find anyone that will sell you a handgun under 21 even in a private sale
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Offline Grytviken

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Re: Another school shooting in Murrica (Oregon edition)
« Reply #220 on: October 05, 2015, 07:47:10 pm »
+1
You say 'if the fucking statistics weren't enough', please direct me to the statistics in your post.

That's all I want, pure unadulterated statistics. You can even give me a pie chart done by skin-tone (oooo, that'd actually be a great one), or a binary white/black %, and you can even choose which years to focus on. You haven't given me any stats, just a link to a page where it lists school shootings in the US (lol, it's a long list), sadly it doesn't give me a colour-chart next to each incident* so where are the stats?

You're mocking my 'sources' but you haven't given me any stats. I never claimed there are no black shooters, but presumably you've brought race into this because you think the 'poor brown people' are more prone to violence than other groups. Bringing this on-topic I want to see some lovely stats on how your world-view relates to school shootings. I personally think it's bullshit to bring race into the matter, but since you insist let's find out which group has a higher natural tendency in the US towards the mass shooting of children, go on, which demographic group in the US loves to butcher kids in school more than anyone else?

(click to show/hide)

*almost as if that isn't important for some reason... (or most likely because the majority of culprits regarding school shootings are white therefore nobody bothered to bring ethnicity into it).

And all of that is easily explainable. The motivation for the crimes are different, one is gang/drug culture related and one is related to one group being a way higher % of overall population which easily equates to have more mentally ill people. School shootings are a rare occurrence compared to other types of mass shootings, but are more shocking and get more media attention for obvious reasons.

Offline Overdriven

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Re: Another school shooting in Murrica (Oregon edition)
« Reply #221 on: October 05, 2015, 07:56:48 pm »
0
Current population of the US is ~320 million

8583/320,000,000 is 0.00002

According the CDC there are around 4m children born each year in the US
Now im not saying that 8583 death is insignificant, but im just trying to put it in perspective

Per 100000:
8583/3200 = 2.68

Which congrats, lowers the US down to the top 20 for homicidal gun deaths.

Offline Grytviken

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Re: Another school shooting in Murrica (Oregon edition)
« Reply #222 on: October 05, 2015, 07:58:29 pm »
0
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_ethnicity_in_the_United_States

'White Americans are the racial majority, with a 77.7% share of the U.S. population'

Largest group? Yes.

Accounts for 90% of the population? Nope

Even conceding the obvious numerical imbalance, those white devils sure are pulling their weight when it comes to mass shootings of kids. And because we can extrapolate this one single statistic to apply to an entire ethnic group for some strange reason, we need to tackle this issue at its cause and stop letting white people into the US.[/sarcasm]

Yes and the difference is we don't write rap songs glorifying their actions, although the liberal media comes close to it by giving them the attention they were seeking all along.

Offline Clockworkkiller

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Re: Another school shooting in Murrica (Oregon edition)
« Reply #223 on: October 05, 2015, 08:09:56 pm »
0
"Criminals don't follow gun laws" is such a ridiculous statement anyway. So they just walk around with unregistered machineguns and when the police wants their license they just go "nope sir I'm a criminal you can't arrest me!"?

No it's more like,

"Background check that I can't pass? No matter, I'll just buy that hi-point handgun off Jamal down the street for $60"
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Offline Grytviken

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Re: Another school shooting in Murrica (Oregon edition)
« Reply #224 on: October 05, 2015, 08:11:42 pm »
0
Back on the rapping for realzies?

Well on that note, if there's no cultural white-person-specific glorification of school shootings then that makes it even worse. Rather than some insane musical indoctrination, if there's no social pressure/glorification maybe white people are just born naturally more hungry for the blood of kiddies? Maybe it's *entirely* genetic after all!

Or maybe in both instances it's 100% to do with class and social pressures, and race is just a big ol' Red Herring considering class still loosely follows racial bands. School shootings are frequently middle class honour students, gang crime is frequently people from impoverished backgrounds. And unfortunately at the moment in the US if you're a middle class honours student you're likely white, and if you're from an impoverished background you're likely black. Just a thought.

Again, the statistics don't lie, http://lmgtfy.com/?q=what+percentage+of+crime+are+committed+by+blacks