[Poll] Feedback on 2h stab.

[ecorcheur_brokar]

The balance of infantry melee weapons seems clear to me (but not to everyone it seems) :

Polearmers have the longest reach, high damage, medium to low speed Damage dealer and support
Two-handers have a short reach, medium to high damage, high speed DPS and dueling class
One-handers have medium reach, low damage, medium speed but can have a shield Main line and protection against ranged

And no, 2h should not beat everything else.

I would rather say:
Polearm: longest reach,medium to high damage,medium speed
2h:medium reach,high damage,medium speed
1h:short reach,low damage,high speed+ shield( which is quite a bonus

And I agree with GTX that realism should not be the main goal when working on balance, otherwise, you will end up the xbow and archery domination just like it happened in history.

About the stab, I think a minor change could be applied so stab glance less. When you look at balance between weapon of the same class, you can see that weapon without stab get huge bonus in exchange (speed or damage). Miodao,bardiche,katana in 2h. scimitar,steelpick in 1h. So now that 2h stab has so much chance of glancing, there is a small unbalance between the 2h weapons.

But as I didn't play a stabby 2h since the patch, I m not sure yet if 2handers glance because they fail to adapt or because stab is broke... time will tell.

[Akavirius]

I would rather say:
Polearm: longest reach,medium to high damage,medium speed
2h:medium reach,high damage,medium speed
1h:short reach,low damage,high speed+ shield( which is quite a bonus

What I said about balance is from my knowledge and experience with weapons IN REAL LIFE, not in-game (not even talking about the game at this point):
Long two handed weapons (polearms) have reach and have the highest kinetic energy because of their length (highest damage) but are vulnerable at close range.
Short two handed weapons (2handers) have the highest speed because of the double grip (lever effect, high torque)
Long one handed weapons are slower than two handed ones because most of the force needed to rotate the weapons come from your wrist (lower torque).

That's reality. THIS can't be implemented in the game because it's impossible. It would have to be a totally different game because the engine can't do that.

[Chewwy666]

A weapon used one handed will have more reach than if you used it two handed, just like in real life. 
Basic geometry.

edit: The previous 2h thrust anim had a artificial reach because the knees and legs bended forward in an impossible way. Good thing it was fixed.

Edit2: A short pole weapon like a poleaxe will have less reach than a rapier because of the way you hold these weapons. The more you know.

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Edit3: Porthos=> 2h fanboy spotted. "buff 2h nerf everything else" is real! 

Except not when the 2h weapon is significantly longer.... Just like in real life....

Take arming swords for example, assuming they were approximately 33-35 inches in length and a longsword being between 40 and 48 inches and greatswords being anywhere from 48 to like 70, based on such measurements your theory is innaccurate. That is if realism was a possible justification for weapon stats and animations which it obviously isn't for reasons discussed previously.

[Kaoklai]

Despite Senni's insistence that the change wasn't motivated by it, it seems like a lot of the support for the change is due to a perception that 2h, and especially its former stab, was op and the change is a deserved nerf.  Now I don't really know what things are like in *EU, but I find that notion a little absurd from an NA perspective.  When there is actually stuff on the line, NA players overwhelmingly use polearms.  90% of the NA tournament duelists used pole, including the winner and all the top finishers.  I think an even greater proportion used polearms in the 3v3 tournament, including literally everyone in the finals match (and this is after pole overhead was rightfully nerfed).  It's quite telling that as [in]famous and dedicated 2h players as exist in this mod, such as Allers and Noodles, switched to polearm when it came to actual, structured competition.  If 2h and its stab were so powerful, one would think it would be a more popular choice in these situations.   

*I heard that Chase won the EU duel tournament using a Nodachi (no stab).  I'd be curious to hear what the weapon breakdown in the EU 5v5 tournament was like.

As for the new animation itself, it's actually a lot better than I initially thought.  I certainly wouldn't consider it a reason to change classes if you were 'dedicated' to 2h.  The decreased range is quite noticeable against cavalry and long-ish, stabby 1hs, though.  I'd suggest increasing the 2h turn rate slightly to reflect the loss of range and perhaps making the stab very, very slightly faster. 

[Akavirius]

The animation in this game are messed up anyway. Why would a thrust magically extend your reach?

I don't even know why we are arguing anymore.

I don't care anymore.

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Quick drawing. I used here "normal" lengths for weapons, but you can find for each type longer and shorter weapons.
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The more time I spend on the forums the less interested i am in this game.
What I want is a medieval combat and battle simulator and the closest thing i have is this arcadey game. That's sad.
I will wait a few more years for what I want.

That's reality. THIS can't be implemented in the game because it's impossible. It would have to be a totally different game because the engine can't do that.

People can't read, blinded by their fanatic rage.

[Leshma]

Despite Senni's insistence that the change wasn't motivated by it, it seems like a lot of the support for the change is due to a perception that 2h, and especially its former stab, was op and the change is a deserved nerf.

You think that Senni made new stab because part of this community wanted it nerfed? Just ask yourself, would you do it?

People contribute to this mod in a way they see fit, not because someone demands it. For example, we got nudge/bash because Paul thought that his Rageball code (which he developed because he was caring about Rageball as a player) could be re-used and modified.

Senni made new stab animation because he didn't like how the old one looked, as he said numerous times. It was accepted by people who are working on this mod because they wanted it. Not because some "2H haters" forced that opinion on them.

If I or anyone who is in similar position as me could force opinion on anyone, this mod would be differently balanced. But that isn't the case.

[Kaoklai]

Way to miss the point entirely.  I said "despite" precisely because I was not questioning Senni's motives, rather those of many of the people posting in this and other threads and voting in accompanying polls.

[Leshma]

Someone who get a wrong impression that I support new thrust by what I wrote on forums about 2H, but that is not the case. Would gladly see old stab back. This new one is weird to use and even harder to defend against. But old stab won't be brought back, I'm sure of that.

[Rebelyell]

What I said about balance is from my knowledge and experience with weapons irl :
Long two handed weapons (polearms) have reach and have the highest kinetic energy because of their length (highest damage) but are vulnerable at close range.
Short two handed weapons (2handers) have the highest speed because of the double grip (lever effect, high torque)
Long one handed weapons are slower than two handed ones because most of the force needed to rotate the weapons come from your wrist (lower torque).

That's reality. THIS can't be implemented in the game because it's impossible. It would have to be a totally different game because the engine can't do that.

Edit: 2h fanboys, worse than weeaboos. Can't even hear any legitimate critique about their godly master race class.
Seriously though. What is wrong with this comment that made you downvote it?

never say never

[Jona]

never say never

Wasn't it later revealed/rumored that this video was fake and cmp simply changed the sound effect to be a troll?

[Rebelyell]

Wasn't it later revealed/rumored that this video was fake and cmp simply changed the sound effect to be a troll?

it is cmp dude

if that was chadz... well that is another story.

also they started work on melee around that time, it may explain why that was never finished

[Jona]

So are you suggesting this was meant to be implemented as well? 

[Rebelyell]

maybe idk

[Akavirius]

You know, I was wrong this whole time. I didn't see the problem.

I must admit, i didn't play 2h since the last patch, so I don't know how it plays from the player point of view.

Maybe the new animation is bad (because it is harder to aim, more glance, i don't really know etc.). But the previous 2h thrust animation was bad too. It was called "lolstab" for a reason, it had so much reach compared to every other animation in the game.
But the one handed stab has a similar problem, it has too much reach too.

Various animations in this game need to be reworked and balanced, like both 1h and (new) 2h thrust.

[pepejul]

Stop QQ 2H bundle of stickss... your kid's toy is now nerfed and it's best thing ever !

Just learn to play with normal weapon now !