Seriously, athletics, agility and speed bonus needs a nerf

[lombardsoup]

Yeah, Sagar is moronic like that. Same guy wanted cut weapons to be useless against plate and all sorts of spergy things.

Should have implemented it temporarily just to witness the rage such a feature would create

[Admerius]

Ok, my first post was just whine about game mechanics change, I didn't realise that until today.

(click to show/hide)

+3 more str
+1 more ps
++4 more if
+ 0 -> 1 pt
+++movement speed due to if boost
+temporary bonus to speedbonus dmg because many people haven't adjusted their footwork with higher ath.

--Skilled agi-whores are even more annoying and dangerous with their positioning/footwork
---I need to learn to negate speedbonuses better
-I need to equip heavier/more expensive) gear to be able to handle the new changes(more ath/wm/ath = more armour to survive similar amount of hits)

Summary of above: Deal with it, the 9agi/3wm/3ath is now slower compared to the average for lvl 34. Adjust or die.

[sF_Guardian]

My Celtic Axe likes eating agiwhores
I still feel that a 27/18 or 30/18 build is far better than an agi-heavy build, maybe it's due to my not so S key focused playstyle, though.

[San]

Glove weight increase (especially lighter gloves), IF change, and powerful/heavy weapon improvements were a few countermeasures against agi builds becoming too OP, at least in keeping the wpf differences between builds somewhat compact unless agi builds give up more durability. No doubt that they're still great, but some may feel a bit frail at times or believe that they may utilize their armor more effectively with +3 strength and -3 agi.

I think it's good to say that you should adjust your strength to the amount of armour you're going to wear. 15-21 strength for medium-light armor, 21-24 for medium, 24-27 for medium-heavy, and 30+ for plate, assuming decent IF levels.

[WarLord]

Glove weight increase (especially lighter gloves), IF change, and powerful/heavy weapon improvements were a few countermeasures against agi builds becoming too OP, at least in keeping the wpf differences between builds somewhat compact unless agi builds give up more durability. No doubt that they're still great, but some may feel a bit frail at times or believe that they may utilize their armor more effectively with +3 strength and -3 agi.

I think it's good to say that you should adjust your strength to the amount of armour you're going to wear. 15-21 strength for medium-light armor, 21-24 for medium, 24-27 for medium-heavy, and 30+ for plate, assuming decent IF levels.

I am playing 27/18 (with 8 IF) in medium-heavy armor at the moment, and all I can say is: I am a fucking tank most of the time, and still got decent running/hitting speed, while oneshotting every lightly armored agi player, and 2-3 hitting the average player.

Really good players still can be uber-deadly with an agi based build (see hearst in light armor, high agi and warspear).
But for 'a-bit-above-the-average' players like me, that are able to block (but not perfectly) and want to survive even with failing more than a few blocks per round (and without a shield against projectiles), a str/if based build still is the way to go. 18 Agi is more than decent enough to compete even with 27 agi builds.

[Phew]

Quick testing a few days ago with my 36/9 and 12/36 polearm characters showed that I do pretty much the same damage with an awlpike with both characters.

This has been my observation as well, and I think it's pretty silly. Interestingly, the agility build is also often more durable than the str build (assuming same armor), because negative speed bonus is so much more effective than additional hitpoints from Str/IF for staying alive. Not to mention it's a lot easier to S-key/dodge with high athletics.

It's also mostly an issue with pierce thrust attacks (i.e. it's mostly awlpike/espada/esotec/etc users that seem to hit for massive damage with high agility builds). Thrusts are just so much easier to get momentum behind than sideswings/overheads.

Rather than directly nerf speed bonus or athletics, my proposition was to make it so Ironflesh negated a portion of speed bonus on attacks against you. That way you wouldn't have these ridiculous situations where guys with 36/9 builds with maxed IF and high armor still get 1-2 shot by agility awlpikers.

[Ujin]

I am playing 27/18 (with 8 IF) in medium-heavy armor at the moment, and all I can say is: I am a fucking tank most of the time, and still got decent running/hitting speed, while oneshotting every lightly armored agi player, and 2-3 hitting the average player.

Really good players still can be uber-deadly with an agi based build (see hearst in light armor, high agi and warspear).
But for 'a-bit-above-the-average' players like me, that are able to block (but not perfectly) and want to survive even with failing more than a few blocks per round (and without a shield against projectiles), a str/if based build still is the way to go. 18 Agi is more than decent enough to compete even with 27 agi builds.

Agi players  2-3 shot almost anyone thanks to the speed / wpf bonus  but at the same time they have 2-3 times your mobility.

[WarLord]

Agi players  2-3 shot almost anyone thanks to the speed / wpf bonus  but at the same time they have 2-3 times your mobility.

Yeah, but they won't survive nearly as much ranged projectiles/throwing weapons, bumps and general hits like me, so I'm fine with that.

 

[San]

That sounds very complicated (Regarding Phew's suggestion). There's no way to "obtain" a speed bonus value and alter it after the fact. You can only weaken the bonus itself, which arguably makes skeying more of a problem.

The agi build can skey, but they'll deal even less damage than you. The goal of the strength build is to use the agi build's movement against them. The strength build is naturally more tanky and powerful, but the initiative is in the hands of the agi build. With the same armor, the agi build may go from 198->180 wpf, while the strength build goes from 155 -> 150wpf (guesstimating medium-light armor), difference of only 2 speed.

Stabs have the exact same speed bonus value as swings given the same movement. It's just that pierce receives the best damage increase from higher raw because of its low reduction factor so it just seems that way most of the time with so few weapons with high damage pierce swings. That's part of the reason why the steel pick, bec, and morningstar feel so strong and the trend of nerfing pierce weapons.

[Ujin]

The agi build can skey, but they'll deal even less damage than you. The goal of the strength build is to use the agi build's movement against them. The strength build is naturally more tanky and powerful, but the initiative is in the hands of the agi build.

I'm sorry , but there is something fundamentally wrong with this balancing logic.

[San]

Let's say the agi build skeys and you hit him. You deal less damage. Let's say that instead, he hits you. He deals less damage plus the damage loss from less power strike. That's as simple as I can make it.

Hit the agi build while he's approaching you (you don't have to commit to the agi build's skey if you're not getting swarmed) and you get the speed bonus from the sheer movement difference, even if it's the strength build skeying. If they're both approaching, the agi build will be demolished in 1-2 swings if he's hit.

[Algarn]

Let's say the agi build skeys and you hit him. You deal less damage. Let's say that instead, he hits you. He deals less damage plus the damage loss from less power strike. That's as simple as I can make it.

Hit the agi build while he's approaching you (you don't have to commit to the agi build's skey if you're not getting swarmed) and you get the speed bonus from the sheer movement difference.

The thing is, if you try to hit someone with 9/10 athl with lower wpf value already, you'll miss, and deal no damage, and while you are preparing another attack, you'll get hit with an instant attack causing massive damages (when you go backward, it doesn't matter with an awlpike... you end up dead, even though you raped the S key).

[San]

That's different than what I was talking about. You can get into any hypothetical from there and then it's a full dueling scenario.

On a still target, I can go from 67 raw to nearly 90-100 with speed bonus with a 27/18 build. Even for strength builds, the speed bonus you can accumulate is quite high.

[Gnjus]

The goal of the strength build is to use the agi build's movement against them.

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[San]

Yes, if you get hit when running at someone, that's your own speed bonus being used against you.

Getting close to ad hominem, so time to eject from thread.