0.4.0.0 - The patch of destiny

[McKli_PL]

Archery is nerfed to the ground (gimme back mah 40 arrows )

[Keshian]

And I stopped reading there. At this point, you're just pulling shit out of your ass. I have nineteen screenshots that say otherwise. When I respecced out of the 4pd build and into the 10pd, I had a 2.3:1 k:d on the character. I'd upload them, but again, it's 19. There are some where I am 8:0, others 3:1 but 90 score, the worst is a mere 1.2:1 k:d. Not that kd matters, because again, I already said 4pd isn't for kd whoring. But more importantly, I'm almost always at the top for score(aka total damage dealt).

http://forum.melee.org/announcements/0-4-0-0-the-patch-of-destiny/285/

That was just yesterday.  And no I saw you near bottom on maps too.  Selective memory.  You do well  as one of the better NA archers, but you also did poorly on multiple maps partly because of how weak the class is.

Still after 3 times havent responded to this basic argument for why your anecdotal playing is not proving aything:

unless you think we should have san test 1h shield determine its way too easy and needs 25% damage reduction or rohy test long mauling and determine it needs 30% speed reduction just because they can do amazing with those classes?

We get you are good archer and any time melee came close you manual blocked most everything if 1v1.  great, how many times do i have to stroke your little ego.  But it doesn't measure properly the strength of the class for the average crpg player.  Vast majority of archers can't do anything with the class, but as long as you can do well - its okay, right.  Faulty logic!!!

This is why people like san make so much better item balancers - they look at the actual damage numbers, listen to the community, look at other people in the class and how they are doing (all the rest of the archers on your team were getting demolished by the way, partly because they supported the team and winning instead of hunting for k/d and score to prove a point), and do verifiable and repeatable data analysis on duel server.  Not just "hey I can do great so class is fine" that you keep doing with all your item changes tydeus.

[GOBBLINKINGREATLEADER]

drawn out fart noises

ok kesh right yep sure

[Thomek]

So we should buff archery because NA archers suck?

[HappyPhantom]

Not every archer is high-level archer, been playing for years, with sub-80 ping.

I think patch has imbalanced the game for archers that don't fit the above, which can't equally be said of melee.

The point was to make the game n00b friendly wasn't it? I think you've probably done that for melee, but maybe not for people who want to be ranged.

[Tydeus]

(click to show/hide)

http://forum.melee.org/announcements/0-4-0-0-the-patch-of-destiny/285/

That was just yesterday.  And no I saw you near bottom on maps too.  Selective memory.  You do well  as one of the better NA archers, but you also did poorly on multiple maps partly because of how weak the class is.

Still after 3 times havent responded to this basic argument for why your anecdotal playing is not proving aything:

unless you think we should have san test 1h shield determine its way too easy and needs 25% damage reduction or rohy test long mauling and determine it needs 30% speed reduction just because they can do amazing with those classes?

We get you are good archer and any time melee came close you manual blocked most everything if 1v1.  great, how many times do i have to stroke your little ego.  But it doesn't measure properly the strength of the class for the average crpg player.  Vast majority of archers can't do anything with the class, but as long as you can do well - its okay, right.  Faulty logic!!!

This is why people like san make so much better item balancers - they look at the actual damage numbers, listen to the community, look at other people in the class and how they are doing (all the rest of the archers on your team were getting demolished by the way, partly because they supported the team and winning instead of hunting for k/d and score to prove a point), and do verifiable and repeatable data analysis on duel server.  Not just "hey I can do great so class is fine" that you keep doing with all your item changes tydeus.

There's something you're not understanding about this "anecdotal evidence". If your argument is about potential (which it is) then one's performance is exactly the type of evidence necessary to refute the argument at hand. Here's your original argument.

With that setup using the damage calculator against "good" armor then you would be doing roughly 15 points of damage a shot (of course with reduced damage 1-2 shots do no damage at all, i.e. glance).  With 27 str 9 ironflesh character you would still take 6 arrows to kill + the 1-2 glancing hits.  Thats 7-8 arrows with expensive bodkins and the nd highest damage bow in the game.

Were any of that true, my performance with that 4 pd build wouldn't possibly be able to be as good as it is, regardless of whether or not I was the best player that had ever touched this game. It wouldn't be possible through game mechanics, let alone ammo count. I don't need a 10 PD build to show you how utterly wrong you are about damage, I can get the damage you're talking about with a simple 4PD build. Stop posting here kesh, leave the discussion to the more reasonable archers that use less hyperbole.

Now, for actual damage amounts that I have seen, as I have my damage reporter turned on 99% of the time, so I see how much damage I do on just about every single shot I make. The 10PD build I run does 20 damage minimum to everything. I don't get lower than that unless I'm wasting arrows shooting long distance shots that more often than not, just turn out to be a wasted arrow. Most of my hits on melee are for about 30 damage. What's more, my crosshairs are almost fully closed with that 10PD build (they fully close with the Rus Bow). Remember, STF character, so there's more potential to be had (higher wm/athletics/ps, not to mention a better archer than I).

On the 4PD build the lowest I have seen while playing so far, is 6 damage. Most of my hits do about 15 damage on NA. This build performs worse for eu as the average armor level is significantly higher. This is the one thing that has me leaning towards raiding damage. As to the damage one does with Arrows... If you are using a low pd build and arrows, you don't get to complain about low damage. That's like complaining about how ineffective a cloth shirt or practice sword is.

Not every archer is high-level archer, been playing for years, with sub-80 ping.

I think patch has imbalanced the game for archers that don't fit the above, which can't equally be said of melee.

The point was to make the game n00b friendly wasn't it? I think you've probably done that for melee, but maybe not for people who want to be ranged.

Except that we want people to be focusing more on playing melee and less on playing ranged. Ranged doesn't really have to be as noob friendly as melee, especially since it's a safer way to play.

Edit: Seriously, if you cannot at least be reasonable about mechanics and performance, stop posting able how bad things are.

[bigsean]

is horse upkeep still the same for those with the 20% reduction?

pretty fucked if so

[Keshian]

Were any of that true, my performance with that 4 pd build wouldn't possibly be able to be as good as it is, regardless of whether or not I was the best player that had ever touched this game.

Wow you are not that bright - simple answer ->Headshots  plus melee damage. Last map before you left in the 5th round you went 1-3  (the 1 kill was a horse running me over in front of you and you killing me on the ground with your melee weapon), half your 20 points score was from melee (i was watching)

Now, for actual damage amounts that I have seen, as I have my damage reporter turned on 99% of the time, so I see how much damage I do on just about every single shot I make. The 10PD build I run does 20 damage minimum to everything. I don't get lower than that unless I'm wasting arrows shooting long distance shots that more often than not, just turn out to be a wasted arrow. Most of my hits on melee are for about 30 damage. What's more, my crosshairs are almost fully closed with that 10PD build (they fully close with the Rus Bow). Remember, STF character, so there's more potential to be had (higher wm/athletics/ps, not to mention a better archer than I).

On the 4PD build the lowest I have seen while playing so far, is 6 damage. Most of my hits do about 15 damage on NA. This build performs worse for eu as the average armor level is significantly higher. This is the one thing that has me leaning towards raiding damage. As to the damage one does with Arrows... If you are using a low pd build and arrows, you don't get to complain about low damage. That's like complaining about how ineffective a cloth shirt or practice sword is.

Lol so you only use bodkins EVER.  Thats totally not a biased study.  many of us dont use bodkins and the damage is 2-3 per hit. Is every archer whoever plays this game supposed to min-max like you just to be doing below average damage?  You are a  shit item analyzer.

Except that we want people to be focusing more on playing melee and less on playing ranged. Ranged doesn't really have to be as noob friendly as melee, especially since it's a safer way to play.

Wow, your pre-conceived prejudices aren't bleeding through right there.  Blatantly obvious from repeated comments in game you don't like archery personally - so everything else you put together is just to validate your already preconceived assumptions and judgments.  Just liek you do with all your horrible attempts at item balance that instead had to be reverted because they actually made the game far less balanced.


Can ANY other item balancer please look at this issue - Tydeus is horribly unqualified for it.

[bigsean]

i would love to see the build on that 10pd stf

completely useless as anything other than a short-mid range turret

thought you guys were encouraging hybrids -> i.e. lower pd

[Tydeus]

Wow you are not that bright - simple answer ->Headshots  plus melee damage. Last map before you left you went 1-3  (the 1 kill was a horse running me over in front of you and you killing me on the ground with your melee weapon), half your score was from melee (i was watching)

Probably because I was talking to san about balance in admin chat and writing my above response.

Lol so you only use bodkins EVER.  Thats totally not a biased study.  many of us dont use bodkins and the damage is 2-3 per hit. Is every archer whoever plays this game supposed to min-max like you just to be doing below average damage?  You are a  shit item analyzer.

I actually use tatar any time I am using a low damage bow/build. What I'm playing on right now has 7PD and I hardly ever run out of ammo with the bodkins, so what reason do I have to use something else? What exactly is your point? If you want to spam arrows, fine, that's why we have Arrows and Barbed Arrows (aside from strat). You don't get to have your cake and eat it. You want more arrows? Then you have to live with lower damage. Hell, that's how all of throwing works.

Wow, your pre-conceived prejudices aren't bleeding through right there.  Blatantly obvious from repeated comments in game you don't like archery personally - so everything else you put together is just to validate your already preconceived assumptions and judgments.

I actually find archery to be a lot of fun. I come from a FPS background, so I like the point and click. The 2nd loom I ever had in this mod was a War Bow. I loomed my German Greatsword, then I loomed my War Bow. In the last year I have easily spent more time on my archer than I have anything else. I don't understand how you can make this argument.

i would love to see the build on that 10pd stf

completely useless as anything other than a short-mid range turret

thought you guys were encouraging hybrids -> i.e. lower pd

Go make a stf. It has pin point accuracy with the Rus Bow and near pin point with a Long Bow. Here's the build, it's simple.

30 Str
18 Agil
10 PD
6 WM
4 Ath

[Artemis13]

Well.. if the design of the game is literally to discourage archers as a viable class on its own...

Please don't take this as a rage quit - I'm not angry. It isn't the game I want to play, and that's fine. Not every player is going to be pleased by every game. I think most people would agree that I was sort of always a fish out of water in CRPG.

But the sensible thing at this point is for me to admit this isn't going to be a game for me, and to go find something else. No hard feelings. I had a lot of really fun times which means my time was in no way wasted.

Thanks Tydeus, San, and everyone else for working their butts off on a game, for free, in the hopes that it would entertain a lot of people for a really long time. I have total respect for you and I hope this turns out the way you hope. I know it can get rough when people constantly attack volunteers for doing things they think is best. Been there, done that.

Adios y'all, and try not to hate on each other too much

---Diana

[Thomek]

Weird. NA archers cry and cry and buy Kesh' bullshit, while EU archers even think archery might be more powerful than before.. I mean.. WTF?

[bigsean]

im not saying it cant be done but 0 if 0 ps 4 ath sounds too painful for a main

[San]

Gonna list out the buffs and nerfs of archery that I think are there.

Nerfs:

-3 damage on all bows

This directly translates to ~-3 final damage to all targets. This leads to a larger % decrease for the lower damage bows compared to the high damage ones. That's a little less than 2PD damage reduction for the strongest bows, and 2-3 for the weakest.

-5 to 6 ammo, translating to -10 to 12 ammo on average.
28 to ~37 ammo if loomed, a comfortable rate of fire is around 6 seconds per shot. Because of this, archers are forced to be selective with their shots. Those without looms experience a much more limited quantity, barely much more ammo than a thrower.

Buffs

Accuracy

Because of the way Warband works, -3 damage translates to ~24wpf worth of accuracy increase. I believe accuracy is also tied to hold time, so that's generally better.

Archery and armor

Archery had a wpf penalty of (effective weight) * 2.5. This has changed to (effective weight) as % reduction of wpf (10 effective weight on 170 wpf = 17 wpf reduction). Archers below 250 wpf all have lower wpf reduction from armor. Hybrid archers can have lower archery wpf and wear armor and they won't be too poorly off.

Archery and IF

Ironflesh allows archers to wear more armor before the wpf reduction begins to apply, giving them defense against other ranged and 1 shots. Their kiting ability is reduced even more, however. These two changes make archers more similar to xbows in terms of being able to wear some decent gear.

Indirect nerfs:

0-2 difficulty shields received significant increases in durability. They still may not last very long against melee attacks, but they're enough to equip and approach archers with them.

Ironflesh and effect of level 37

There aren't too many min-max complete builds at level 37, so people tend to put points into the buffed ironflesh and shield.

Indirect Buffs:

The heavier horses received durability nerfs, making most horses more susceptible to ranged in general despite the damage loss.

Conclusion:
I like to think of Attack, Defence, and Speed as related; the viability of defence has increased while attack and speed were hit. I think that the low tier bows were hit a little hard in damage since it takes more than 2PD to break even, but you also can't ignore the possibility of the existence of many heavy kiting builds possibly appearing.

Archers used to be able to have good attack and speed, yet have poor defence no matter the build. Now, it takes many skill points to be proficient in speed while attack and defence complements each other this time around.

I don't think +2 ammo would hurt, but I think buffing the damage on the weaker arrows to lessen the damage difference might not be too bad. (except for Arrows 'cause of strat I guess).

[dontgothere]

i agree with all of you that throwing weapon mechanics still need a buff i loved your ideas about increasing the benefits for PT levels above the requirement and that shirt looks good on you