0.4.0.0 - The patch of destiny

[Tydeus]

(click to show/hide)

Gonna list out the buffs and nerfs of archery that I think are there.

Nerfs:

-3 damage on all bows

This directly translates to ~-3 final damage to all targets. This leads to a larger % decrease for the lower damage bows compared to the high damage ones. That's a little less than 2PD damage reduction for the strongest bows, and 2-3 for the weakest.

-5 to 6 ammo, translating to -10 to 12 ammo on average.
28 to ~37 ammo if loomed, a comfortable rate of fire is around 6 seconds per shot. Because of this, archers are forced to be selective with their shots. Those without looms experience a much more limited quantity, barely much more ammo than a thrower.

Buffs

Accuracy

Because of the way Warband works, -3 damage translates to ~24wpf worth of accuracy increase. I believe accuracy is also tied to hold time, so that's generally better.

Archery and armor

Archery had a wpf penalty of (effective weight) * 2.5. This has changed to (effective weight) as % reduction of wpf (10 effective weight on 170 wpf = 17 wpf reduction). Archers below 250 wpf all have lower wpf reduction from armor. Hybrid archers can have lower archery wpf and wear armor and they won't be too poorly off.

Archery and IF

Ironflesh allows archers to wear more armor before the wpf reduction begins to apply, giving them defense against other ranged and 1 shots. Their kiting ability is reduced even more, however. These two changes make archers more similar to xbows in terms of being able to wear some decent gear.

Indirect nerfs:

0-2 difficulty shields received significant increases in durability. They still may not last very long against melee attacks, but they're enough to equip and approach archers with them.

Ironflesh and effect of level 37

There aren't too many min-max complete builds at level 37, so people tend to put points into the buffed ironflesh and shield.

Indirect Buffs:

The heavier horses received durability nerfs, making most horses more susceptible to ranged in general despite the damage loss.

Conclusion:
I like to think of Attack, Defence, and Speed as related; the viability of defence has increased while attack and speed were hit. I think that the low tier bows were hit a little hard in damage since it takes more than 2PD to break even, but you also can't ignore the possibility of the existence of many heavy kiting builds possibly appearing.

Archers used to be able to have good attack and speed, yet have poor defence no matter the build. Now, it takes many skill points to be proficient in speed while attack and defence complements each other this time around.

I don't think +2 ammo would hurt, but I think buffing the damage on the weaker arrows to lessen the damage difference might not be too bad. (except for Arrows 'cause of strat I guess).

Agreed on all fronts, except that it's lacking a largely important indirect buff.

By increasing accuracy by 24 wpf worth, as well as greatly reducing wpf penalties for certain builds, on top of increasing levels to allow for more attribute points, we've allowed players to maintain their same (or nearly so) effective accuracy with less wm and more pd in their builds. With PD being 14% per level, it becomes rather easy to receive a damage increase while maintaining the same, or better accuracy.

[Keshian]

(click to show/hide)

Gonna list out the buffs and nerfs of archery that I think are there.

Nerfs:

-3 damage on all bows

This directly translates to ~-3 final damage to all targets. This leads to a larger % decrease for the lower damage bows compared to the high damage ones. That's a little less than 2PD damage reduction for the strongest bows, and 2-3 for the weakest.

-5 to 6 ammo, translating to -10 to 12 ammo on average.
28 to ~37 ammo if loomed, a comfortable rate of fire is around 6 seconds per shot. Because of this, archers are forced to be selective with their shots. Those without looms experience a much more limited quantity, barely much more ammo than a thrower.

Buffs

Accuracy

Because of the way Warband works, -3 damage translates to ~24wpf worth of accuracy increase. I believe accuracy is also tied to hold time, so that's generally better.

Archery and armor

Archery had a wpf penalty of (effective weight) * 2.5. This has changed to (effective weight) as % reduction of wpf (10 effective weight on 170 wpf = 17 wpf reduction). Archers below 250 wpf all have lower wpf reduction from armor. Hybrid archers can have lower archery wpf and wear armor and they won't be too poorly off.

Archery and IF

Ironflesh allows archers to wear more armor before the wpf reduction begins to apply, giving them defense against other ranged and 1 shots. Their kiting ability is reduced even more, however. These two changes make archers more similar to xbows in terms of being able to wear some decent gear.

Indirect nerfs:

0-2 difficulty shields received significant increases in durability. They still may not last very long against melee attacks, but they're enough to equip and approach archers with them.

Ironflesh and effect of level 37

There aren't too many min-max complete builds at level 37, so people tend to put points into the buffed ironflesh and shield.

Indirect Buffs:

The heavier horses received durability nerfs, making most horses more susceptible to ranged in general despite the damage loss.

Conclusion:
I like to think of Attack, Defence, and Speed as related; the viability of defence has increased while attack and speed were hit. I think that the low tier bows were hit a little hard in damage since it takes more than 2PD to break even, but you also can't ignore the possibility of the existence of many heavy kiting builds possibly appearing.

Archers used to be able to have good attack and speed, yet have poor defence no matter the build. Now, it takes many skill points to be proficient in speed while attack and defence complements each other this time around.

I don't think +2 ammo would hurt, but I think buffing the damage on the weaker arrows to lessen the damage difference might not be too bad. (except for Arrows 'cause of strat I guess).

Thank you,  that was really well thought and analyzed, I appreciate your efforts and accept whatever changes you decide to make to balance melee  players wants and archers wants.  Sounded like a very impartial thought out analysis, I appreciate that.

Agreed on all fronts, except that it's lacking a largely important indirect buff.

By increasing accuracy by 24 wpf worth, as well as greatly reducing wpf penalties for certain builds, on top of increasing levels to allow for more attribute points, we've allowed players to maintain their same (or nearly so) effective accuracy with less wm and more pd in their builds. With PD being 14% per level, it becomes rather easy to receive a damage increase while maintaining the same, or better accuracy.

You are talking about adding ironflesh, which means they can't take advantage  of adding the 2PD needed just to have the same damage as pre-patch.  Its one or the other not both like you are listing.  Damage better than accuracy as arbalests are designed for cs:go style snipering with their shoot speed, archery is supposed to function with less accuracy but faster fire. 

Simplest solution: reduce bow accuracy ratings back to what they were a year ago and then add back 3 damage to lower tier bows (increase the weight of those bows by 10 if you are worried about kiting), add back only 2 damage to higher tier bows.  By adding the damage back you also will be reducing accuracy.  Most non-top echelon archers are not cs:go style headshotters, but rather support archers shooting more consistent body shots and horse shots.

Personally I'm all for nerfing athletics/movement speed - so abused for s-keying in melee and kiting by ranged.  Solve a world of problems.  Forcing people to actually manual block would go long way.

[Prpavi]

So when is this Kesh mute happening?

[FRANK_THE_TANK]

Holy shit I'd written a huge post and then I hit ctrl instead of shit while typing and nuked it

TL:DR

All sub 5PD bows need a boost to damage. Realistically the nomad bow could have 30 dmg but the fact that it can only get to 6PD means that the long bow will still trounce it. If the boost in power is substantial enough cut the PD req by one on everything sub the horn bow. That cut to max PD will keep the bows in line re power but will at least make them an option again.

Change the max damage output for HA 20-25 with the massive change to the amount of HP going around people in rags can tank the shots quiet well. If it can be uncoupled from head shots do it, because it's just spastic that you don't get a bonus for going for a much harder shot.

----
My ideas for the what archery both HA and ground could be.

Much lower accuracy
Much lower missile speed
Much higher fire speeds on the lower bows, say a two second turn around time on the nomad instead of nearly 4.
Much higher damage output, with the granted exception of the long bow that probably only needs a minor tweak 1-2 point increase.

Increase the amount of agi need for HA bonus from 6 to 8.

Short bow becomes 0 slot for hybrids et al

Two slot quivers (no change to weight they are already fat and self concious)

Making it more of a ground control option and forcing HA to get in close and personal and risk themselves to counter attack more.

I'll come edit this when I recall the rest of my ramblings.

[ShinySpoons]

So when is this Kesh mute happening?

When Kesh is fully subsumed with Venom

[Keshian]

When Kesh is fully subsumed with Venom

come on spoons, I know you love me 

[Molly]

Weird. NA archers cry and cry and buy Kesh' bullshit, while EU archers even think archery might be more powerful than before.. I mean.. WTF?

This.

[Huscarlton_Banks]

I dunno what you have in mind for accuracy frank, but having 30 base damage with an attack rate faster than tossing throwing darts doesn't seem like it'd make it into a patch.

After +2 from the heirloom bonus and another +2 from loomed bodkins, a 15/30 archer would end up doing more damage than a 30/33 thrower with +3 war darts.

[Harpag]

For some it will be a cause for laughter and a sign of being gay, but I'll tell you what pisses me off. Annoying bugs of textures in new items. Here are some examples: awesome new European Cavalry Sword, but hanging in the air, when the old  good Arabian Cavalry Sword is polished and have strap. I think will be same like with Italian - never finished, forever bugged. New pretty cool surcoat over mail - seemingly great, there is any ugly bug with shoes, but between the legs an old ugly texture and any gloves fit perfectly meanwhile the good old kuyak is ideal and have no defects.

Is there a plan to improve bad textures, or rather it's the "final" product?

[Thomek]

Harpag, the item guys are the ones that should do this.

[Umbra]

For some it will be a cause for laughter and a sign of being gay, but I'll tell you what pisses me off. Annoying bugs of textures in new items. Here are some examples: awesome new European Cavalry Sword, but hanging in the air, when the old  good Arabian Cavalry Sword is polished and have strap. I think will be same like with Italian - never finished, forever bugged. New pretty cool surcoat over mail - seemingly great, there is any ugly bug with shoes, but between the legs an old ugly texture and any gloves fit perfectly meanwhile the good old kuyak is ideal and have no defects.

Is there a plan to improve bad textures, or rather it's the "final" product?

Welp the way i see it, this happens because we ARE the beta testers of these items. Its always the same each patch, missing pictures, invisible weapons, helments floating in the air etc. Just wait some time

[Harpag]

"You have 10 days, 7 hours and 4 minutes left to exchange an heirloom. To do that select the 'Exchange' action for an item." 

[Falene]

Under "Game mechanic megathread", I've posted some full gear examples using new 0.4.0.0 formulas. It's mostly focalized on the impact of armor weight on WPF, but now I also added a useful hint at the expected running speed for different combinations of armor ;)
I edited that post multiple times last night and this morning, as it contained a few interpretation errors () but I'm kinda fine with the results now 
--> http://forum.melee.org/beginner%27s-help-and-guides/game-mechanic-megathread!/msg1084615/#msg1084615

[Angantyr]

Blue Brigandine over Aketon still has white texture bug, if it has escaped anyone's notice.

(brig over aketons have brown hoses now, btw.?)

[Forest_Warrior]

QQ i can't play after this patch of destiny!!