Nerf Agi and Make Ironflesh Useful

[Jona]

Pretty much every (serious) build I make has ironflesh. Many times I've lived on with low hp and gone on to help my team a lot after that. Without IF you wouldn't get the chance to do that.

Pretty much every (level 30) build I make has minimal, if any, ironflesh. Many times I've lived on with low hp and gone on to help my team a lot after that, all while thinking "Good thing I didn't invest in more IF, since I am gonna die in 1 hit regardless."

[Phew]

Pretty much every (level 30) build I make has minimal, if any, ironflesh. Many times I've lived on with low hp and gone on to help my team a lot after that, all while thinking "Good thing I didn't invest in more IF, since I am gonna die in 1 hit regardless."

It's just a place to dump points if you won't be reaching the next level of PS or Athletics. I'll have 4 IF at lvl 35, only because I don't intend to ever hit level 36. Right now I'd trade Ironflesh for a decent internet connection

[Falka]

Many times I've lived on with low hp and gone on to help my team a lot after that, all while thinking "Good thing I didn't invest in more IF, since I am gonna die in 1 hit regardless."

but not one teamhit! 

[Kalam]

The big problem that I find with agi based builds is that they break animations for me at 150-170+ wpf. Perhaps lowering the speed of everything(arrow speed, movement speed, wpf, weapon speed) at a particular ratio and then increasing the server speed? Other than that all you can do is buff IF ALOT so people actually use it(I haven't had it for 2 years) or buffing PS so higher str builds hit harder then the agi builds with their huge wpf damage enhancement.

This is largely a frame rate issue, though it seems the server/your PC just gives up every now and then and you'll see an insta-swing (or stab) from just about any melee weapon.

The difference between 6 IF and no IF is the difference between getting 7-1 a map and 7-3 a map. Minor, sure, but it could be the difference between getting your team a multiplier or not. IF is invaluable against ranged weapons and teamhits, when combined with some armor.

In a one on one situation, IF is great because it allows you to take hits (on purpose) and use that to hit back in situations where you're feeling impatient or need to get rid of the enemy quickly.

And before people scream IT'S KALAM, HE'S AGIWHORE TO THE MAX...I've played and continue to play other builds. This is simply my preference.

[Phew]

This is largely a frame rate issue

The "swing animation skipping frames" thing that mostly (only?) happens with polearms can't be a framerate thing, because I have 144 fps  (lightboost LCD with strobing, so that is "realized" fps, not just what the video card is rendering) and I see it every time an agility polearmer swings a fast weapon. It definitively gets worse as my ping increases though, so I think it's a server-client sync issue. Extreme agility builds with 2h and 1h (i.e. you and San, respectively) just render "fast" animations, but they are clearly showing all the frames still. Polearm right swings and overheads just skip right from ready position to a hit.

I'm learning a lot about how many mechanics scale with ping, since my ISP has decided to slowly fluctuate between 38ms and 300ms.

[Kalam]

The "swing animation skipping frames" thing that mostly (only?) happens with polearms can't be a framerate thing, because I have 144 fps  (lightboost LCD with strobing, so that is "realized" fps, not just what the video card is rendering) and I see it every time an agility polearmer swings a fast weapon. It definitively gets worse as my ping increases though, so I think it's a server-client sync issue. Extreme agility builds with 2h and 1h (i.e. you and San, respectively) just render "fast" animations, but they are clearly showing all the frames still. Polearm right swings and overheads just skip right from ready position to a hit.

I'm learning a lot about how many mechanics scale with ping, since my ISP has decided to slowly fluctuate between 38ms and 300ms.

Yeh. I think the polearm swing thing happens more often just because it's not as smooth an animation as, say, the one-hand animations. Which were probably the best (not from a game balance viewpoint) animations until the recent change.

[agweber]

In a one on one situation, IF is great because it allows you to take hits (on purpose) and use that to hit back in situations where you're feeling impatient or need to get rid of the enemy quickly.

What? I've never gotten a swing in after getting hit, given the stun duration.

Also, I've never seen this insta-swing that's being discussed. Which makes me agree that it's likely a connection issue. I've got a 20-30 ping pretty much all the time. Maybe I should go play EU for a while and see if I can see it there.

[Kafein]

I think that a good 70wpf should be frontloaded at the start.

Clearly IF is the one carrying your tankiness.

My argument is that HP are valuable because they provide very real tankiness and allow surviving through a consequent number of errors, something Jona disagrees with. I'm simply using that example to show that "since I am gonna die in 1 hit regardless." isn't something one says often when using a good build with good equipment.

But what do I know, maybe half the playerbase in NA consists of morningstars and arbalests.

[pepejul]

MAke shield STR dependent and archery AGI dependent... it will be funny to see running gays archers kitting real slow shieldy tanks while hours....

[Jona]

I'm simply using that example to show that "since I am gonna die in 1 hit regardless." isn't something one says often when using a good build with good equipment.

I think you misunderstood what I meant.... Gurnisson pointed out that whenever he is blackbarred he is thankful for having ironflesh, since it is what is keeping him alive, and no matter how much health you have you can still kill just as effectively. Now, I agree with that 100%, and obviously if you have plenty of points invested in IF then it will indeed be the reason you are alive whenever your health is really low. I was just pointing out that IF can be just as useless as it can be useful. Let us say that you have an 18 strength build with 0 IF, which will mean you have 53 hp. You get into a fight with someone and before dispatching him he hits you three times. You walk away blackbarred... I'm talking 1hp left. That means that he took a little over 17hp (17.3333333...) per hit. Now then, let's examine that scenario if you have IF maxed, so your hp is now 65. The enemy managed to hit you 3 times again, did the same amount of damage per hit, so at the end of the day you've got 65-52=13hp left. Okay, 13 seems a lot nicer than 1hp, right? Well, what if this enemy hit you again in each scenario? In scenario #1, where you have 1hp left, obviously you will die. What about scenario #2, where you have 6 more points invested in IF? Let's see... he does ~17 hp/hit, and you have 13hp left... yeah, you're still dead. The only times lots of IF is pretty much guaranteed to grant you prolonged life (not counting glances and 0PS peasant hits here) is when you are fully plated up against someone using a weak cut-damage weapon.

[Jack1]

This is largely a frame rate issue, though it seems the server/your PC just gives up every now and then and you'll see an insta-swing (or stab) from just about any melee weapon.

this is not a framerate issue, I am at constant 120 fps. It is also not a connection issue because I am always 23-27 ping. I rarely get lag and when I do it is just constant EU ping for hours. I usually play a single player game in that scenario.

Also I think your not understanding what I'm saying in terms of breaking animations. I'm talking about when the high wpf people double swing you and the second hit lands right when they release it. I know there is a difference between animations breaking and fast weapons. You and San rarely break animations and just swing fast. Krosis, spiritus, and on a rare occasion jona breaks them in the way I'm talking. It is also more noticeable if you have a character with lower WPF.


The difference between 6 IF and no IF is the difference between getting 7-1 a map and 7-3 a map. Minor, sure, but it could be the difference between getting your team a multiplier or not. IF is invaluable against ranged weapons and teamhits, when combined with some armor.

jona explained this well but might I add that getting 1 more ath means getting to an archer in 1 or 2 less shots, helps you dodge better etc. And one more power strike kills an enemy instead of black barring them and may make you survive?

[San]

My argument is that HP are valuable because they provide very real tankiness and allow surviving through a consequent number of errors, something Jona disagrees with. I'm simply using that example to show that "since I am gonna die in 1 hit regardless." isn't something one says often when using a good build with good equipment.

But what do I know, maybe half the playerbase in NA consists of morningstars and arbalests.

My stance is that with good enough strength and armor, you're tanky enough such that +3 strength +1 PS,  +3 agi +1 ath, Riding, Shield, etc. are more valuable. It does make sense that IF's HP increase is weak because it's a global skill that only provides benefits everyone/doesn't rely on gear, but since damage sources are likely to exceed the amount of HP gained from IF, it's not worth it. +3 strength and +1 PS vs 7IF is 11hp at worst. With any extra points left over, that value shrinks to 9 or lower.

Problem is that max HP is already in a pretty good spot in mine and I believe many others' opinions I think. Either low IF builds need less HP and have IF scale better (can't be done since HP from strength is hardcoded), or give an additional property to IF outside of HP increases which won't make it any more broken against melee in your eyes.

[Wraist]

I was thinking, since a lot of people have an issue with agi's sticking on armor and being faster than an average str build, and I would rather not have the armor difficulty upped, why not do something like increase armor weight and increase the str reduction to how armor effects your movement speed?

Also, IF for range stun shortening, and make a counter to the shield skill [ie +13% damage vs shield/IF; blatant lobbying is blatant]

[Falka]

(click to show/hide)

I think you misunderstood what I meant.... Gurnisson pointed out that whenever he is blackbarred he is thankful for having ironflesh, since it is what is keeping him alive, and no matter how much health you have you can still kill just as effectively. Now, I agree with that 100%, and obviously if you have plenty of points invested in IF then it will indeed be the reason you are alive whenever your health is really low. I was just pointing out that IF can be just as useless as it can be useful. Let us say that you have an 18 strength build with 0 IF, which will mean you have 53 hp. You get into a fight with someone and before dispatching him he hits you three times. You walk away blackbarred... I'm talking 1hp left. That means that he took a little over 17hp (17.3333333...) per hit. Now then, let's examine that scenario if you have IF maxed, so your hp is now 65. The enemy managed to hit you 3 times again, did the same amount of damage per hit, so at the end of the day you've got 65-52=13hp left. Okay, 13 seems a lot nicer than 1hp, right? Well, what if this enemy hit you again in each scenario? In scenario #1, where you have 1hp left, obviously you will die. What about scenario #2, where you have 6 more points invested in IF? Let's see... he does ~17 hp/hit, and you have 13hp left... yeah, you're still dead. The only times lots of IF is pretty much guaranteed to grant you prolonged life (not counting glances and 0PS peasant hits here) is when you are fully plated up against someone using a weak cut-damage weapon.

You could say the same about any skill I guess. Power Strike e.g. With +3 Claymore you're able to kill almost everyone in 3 hits I think, no matter if you have 6 or 8 PS, so what, PS is useless? 

[Jona]

You could say the same about any skill I guess. Power Strike e.g. With +3 Claymore you're able to kill almost everyone in 3 hits I think, no matter if you have 6 or 8 PS, so what, PS is useless? 

The difference between 6 and 8 PS is not a 6 skill point difference.