Nerf Agi and Make Ironflesh Useful

[MURDERTRON]

Just tie the previously 111 WPF thing to AGI, with a target of 18.  Meaning, if you have 18 agi, you can have 111WPF in one weapon type, without any weapon mastery points.

[San]

I think that a good 70wpf should be frontloaded at the start.

Well it's my experience as someone wearing 70 body armor, with 24 STR and only 3IF. Some guys with very powerful weapons still hurt badly, but I can laugh at 1h bar the very powerful ones or if the other guy is stacking 10 PS. One of the consequences of the general drift towards AGI has been that tank builds got even more tankish due to lower damage.

Clearly IF is the one carrying your tankiness.

[Killer]

I noticed when i was playing my 21-18 build and had 7 ironflesh that i could tank about 4-6 arrows (from normal foot archer) or take about 5 hits in melee and live (depending on person/ppl) when i had 64 body armor and when i was 12-27 with 0 ironflesh and had 60 body armor i took about 2 arrows and maybe 2 hits in melee before going down, but more recently i played a 27-12 build with about 7 or 8 ironflesh and an arrow took about 10-20%  heath off when i had 60 body armor on and this was from a bodkin which would half heath me with 12 str and 0 if (was a foot archer who shot not ha but not a longbow either irrc) also that build was fun to take a heashot from a bodkin arrow and live when i had a +0 black helmet on

[Gurnisson]

Pretty much every (serious) build I make has ironflesh. Many times I've lived on with low hp and gone on to help my team a lot after that. Without IF you wouldn't get the chance to do that.

[Falka]

there were still people like Allers and Tretter which went full strength, but only put points into powerstrike. The reason for this is that for each PS you essentially get 3 health points... so why bother wasting skill points on 2 extra hp when you could put them all into the more important skill?

Because instead of 1 more PS you can have 7 more IF? At lvl 31 you can have either this build:

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Level: 31
Health Points: 59
Weapon Proficiency Points: 9

Strength: 24
Agility: 18

Two Handed: 155

Power Strike: 8
Athletics: 6
Weapon Master: 6

or this one:

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Level: 31
Health Points: 70
Weapon Proficiency Points: 9

Strength: 21
Agility: 18

Two Handed: 155

Iron Flesh: 7
Power Strike: 7
Athletics: 6
Weapon Master: 6

First build has 1 more PS, second one 11 more hp. In other words; 8% more dmg or 18.6% more hp.

[Falka]

 

[NJ_Legion_Icedtea]

Haven't even thought about using IF for a long time now with my builds, just the thought of at lvl 31 having a 21/21 18/24 24/18 build instead of less agi/str and having IF instead.

Then if I think about going higher, shield/cav skill is always my initial reaction. Higher STR requirements, buffing IF AND speed bonus nerf would honestly be my solution to the agi whores (myself included)

[Huscarlton_Banks]

It's worth considering that with an extra 3 AGI + 1 ath, you take less damage from hits if you backpedal properly(speed bonus for melee is still exponential), and it's possible that you may not even get hit.

The bad thing about ironflesh is that it really has all-or-nothing results, and it only does one thing.

Once you get to the point where ironflesh reliably makes you survive one more hit (meaning you only have 1 hp left), it's very difficult to survive another extra hit with a further investment unless your opponents were already doing miniscule damage (further points in IF * 2 > damage of hit).

[Voncrow]

One of the consequences of the general drift towards AGI has been that tank builds got even more tankish due to lower damage.

That sounds more like a personal problem for people who go agi to me.  The fact that people deal less damage to them because a lot of people changed their builds isn't an argument one way or the other for buffing or nerfing. If that's the main reason for all you've said in this thread about str being too tanky, it's pretty much all irrelevant.

[Thryn]

Yesterday I was playing and I noticed that I was blackbarred; that's when I literally thought to myself "I'm alive because of Ironflesh." However, Ironflesh pretty much guarantees only 1 more hit before death - a bad 6 point trade off against shield, riding, etc.

Long story short, I would like for ironflesh to remain like it is on the 2+ health per level (it's not that great), and I would also like it to have some benefit against ranged attacks.

[Gravoth_iii]

Suggested many times, hp too hardcoded or whatever (lazy donkey i say, but hey what do i know).

[Phew]

3 more AGI+1 Ath and wearing 7KG heavier armor (so your movement speed is the same) is always better for survivability than just spending those points on 7 IF, and you get more wpf as a bonus. The only drawback is the cost, but experienced players have more gold than they'll ever need anyway.

The main problem with agility is actually speed bonus; 18/27 guys hit just as hard as 27/18 guys, especially with thrusts. But the 18/27 is also just as tough, because he can use negative speed bonus and heavier armor to mitigate damage more effectively than the strength build guy.

1. Find a way to make 7 ironflesh more attractive than +3AGI, +1 ath, and +7kg armor
2. Find a way to reduce melee speed bonus without brutally nerfing cav (i.e. if the equation is a*v^n, decrease a and increase n)
3. Give another round of free respecs so everyone can drop their 21/24 builds

[MURDERTRON]

I'm pretty sure you're slower with 7kg more armor and 1 more ath.

[Admerius]

I just got another idea, that I'm going to throw out there...

If possible rename "Ironflesh" to "Battle hardened" or something similar

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Bloodied, Bloodthirst, Heroism, Brutishness, Battle affinity

The reason why it should be renamed will become apparent now:

Add a small wpf gain similar to WM to this new version of Ironflesh.
I mean SMALL wpf gain COMPARED to WM, like half or 1/3 of what the same rank in WM would give. Most likely even lower like 1/10th.

This will act as a alight de-nerf of pure str builds wpf.

I would propose making 11IF/3agi would cap att about 111wpf, that way 12PS/11IF builds will become playable again with hig-end medium armours and expensive heavy weapons without having to sell looms/play alts for those weapon repairs.

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For me this build was the one that taught me how to not be completely owned by high ath backpeddlars. Ironically a 0 ath build taught me the lesson of knowing my weapon swing speed, attack direction and footwork.

The most important thing however was the fact that it took several hits to kill me, making it possible to get in lucky semi-glances(yes several of those with 12 PS) on black barred top tier players.

I'm restating the idea again:
IF should get a small wpf gain just like WM but MUCH smaller.
11if/3agi should cap out with a single weapon type at about 110 wpf.

[MURDERTRON]

That's exactly what they want to avoid.