CRPG is indeed dying.

[Christo]

To be fair, this "it used to be worse" thinking is fallacious.

Yes but when you think about it he points to the 'grindiness' as the imminent death of cRPG, which is even more ridiculous.

[Leesin]

cRPG has been dying for years yet there's still hundreds of people playing daily, lol.

[Joseph Porta]

C-rpg was ded the moment it aired, we are just mindless zombie slaves in service of Him.

[Fearvich]

Another topic hijacked so everyone can cry about weaponry.

Anyone notice all the new players? The CRPG rank on moddb? How popular it is on steam workshop? What about the fact that siege usually has half the players of battle now, and how noobs are playing DTV, even rageball has some people.

Shut your filthy mouths.

[Tears of Destiny]

The thing with 500 hours is right but nobody leaves cRPG because he cant reach fucking lvl 36....
There is just ONE REASON: cRPG Players are too good and there is NO solution to fix it. Do u want to enable Autoblock or what?

That wasn't really my reason.

[Grumbs]

All those changes are basically only balance tweaks, and I think after all the nerfs cav and archers have gone through, it should be clear that changing the balance won't fix the biggest problem infantry has on the battlefield: they have to reach their enemy on foot in order to kill him. And sadly enough, killing the enemy is actually required to win. So you need to "catch" your enemy in order to win, while two thirds of the enemies actually either run away all the time (cav) or keep you under fire constantly (ranged) or sometimes do even both (HA/HX). And once you reached him the fight is actually basing on interaction (attacking + blocking), where the enemy has to make a mistake in order to allow you to kill him, whereas shooting or lance backstabbing only require the relatively common mistake of being unaware, but there is no "interaction" at all. This is where the frustration come from, the constant feeling that you are not acting, but reacting, and although you are the one who is actually chasing, you are the prey, while the others are the hunter. It's the fact that most of the time an enemy has more or less to "agree" that the infantryman can attack him, unless it's the end of the round or a special occurance kicks in.

You can never "balance" the fact that an infantryman can not pick his targets the same way archers or cav can. It's the very basic gameplay of that class which is the problem, not the strength or weakness in particular aspects. Only a fundamental change in the game can remove the passiveness of that class. And there will never be a solution which shifts how well or bad an infantryman can attack the other classes or can be attacked by them. Which means any game mode basing solely on killing the enemies won't work for infantry. That's more or less a physical law, you can't break it. Infantry has a) slow speed and b) low attack range, so you can be awkward as much as you like, you won't be able to change that fact.

I see what you mean about melee having less of a role and being a reactive class rather than proactive, but I do think its also a balance issue that is fixable to some extent. Just because the balancing is often not fixing issues it doesn't mean it can't be with the right tweaks

The nerfs and buffs haven't really focussed on the right areas, thats why they don't really get it right. They even exacerbate the problems by reducing the incentive for playing without ranged abilities by increasing ranged builds strengths in melee. They thought that would stop people kiting, but instead they just kite until they're forced into melee. They kite just as much

They nerfed polearms stabs too much so they don't counter cav as they used to. Instead weapons used by ranged get this OP stab that should be something you get by being a melee role

They buffed agi so splitting WPF between melee and ranged is easier. Str characters don't really get any benefit they could have, like IF being useful or PS being better than movement speed in melee. In fact they nerfed str characters unnecessarily

The main issue is the balancing pushes more people to play ranged/cav when there should be key reasons not to, because taking them creates some negative trait for the build. To even defend against ranged half heartedly you need to spend like 5 points into shields, which you could spend on PD instead (or more stats if you go Xbow).

[San]

We do have some things we can tweak though that ensure pure melee have a clear advantage similar to what ranged and cav have in their role.

We have ways to make cav vulnerable when they are dehorsed. ATM cav players are protected by their horse because of the anti team wound mechanic that was introduced some time ago. You can't really harm a cav player if he is dehorsed and is near his horse before he gets up. That could be tweaked. Anti cav weapons aren't as good as they used to be, in fact shorter weapons are more effective than pikes/longspears. Even a 1 hander can be better because it deals damage so fast and does good damage. Length is meaningless if they don't deal damage fast enough when we're concerned with fast moving things, and if the damage is too low to dehorse

I never liked the horse covering the dehorsed rider. I don't think it will get updated, though. You can hit him if you're lucky, but the rider/horse's position is not always correct, so sometimes you end up hitting the horse when you had a clear swing on the rider.

Damage types and armour - We have cut, pierce and blunt and yet all of them are very similar and ranged have access to both cut and pierce. Ranged could be impacted more when wearing armour with the way it affects their WPF. Heavier armour could be more effective against ranged melee weapons

That's how it works. The wpf bug from earlier overrode this, which was a problem, but ranged players do receive a heavy penalty from armor. It's nearly 2-3x as much as melee. The updated calc should have it.

We have the slot system - if ranged had to use 0 slot weapons you could tweak 0 slots as much as you like to balance them in melee. Weapon weight is a great way to balance - lighter weapons have a much harder time blocking than heavy ones

The more time ranged spend reloading, the more time melee have to play to their strengths - pushing in large numbers. Again something that can be tweaked

Xbows have no real skill point sink and they can be used with low WPF. Skill points in general can be used to tweak the classes - the more points you have to put into cav or PD the fewer points you can put into melee skills

I'm sure if there was an interest in tweaking the role of ranged and cav that could be done without changing a popular game mode. Theres also stuff like ranged ammo amounts, how easy it is to hit targets etc

Yep. I was cautious at first, but from what I see in-game, I think that the 8 diff horses can be lowered to 7 since 7 does the job just fine without being overly limiting. Xbows are quite tricky to deal with. They can be used quite easily with 1 wpf as well, since melee characters don't need to shoot from a distance. Xbow power has been toned down quite a bit, even though it's still quite high. Maybe wpf should go into the negatives if the penalties are too high for xbows?

Joker stuff

True. You'd have to change the game mode, and there will be people for and against every change. I think that for now, there should be an option available to infantry to properly react to every situation with the proper gear choice.

The nerfs and buffs haven't really focussed on the right areas, thats why they don't really get it right. They even exacerbate the problems by reducing the incentive for playing without ranged abilities by increasing ranged builds strengths in melee. They thought that would stop people kiting, but instead they just kite until they're forced into melee. They kite just as much

True. Not as much as before the arrow weight change, though, which is good.

They nerfed polearms stabs too much so they don't counter cav as they used to. Instead weapons used by ranged get this OP stab that should be something you get by being a melee role.

I decided to spectate EU1 for a few minutes and saw Teeth at something like 32-2 or something with a stab-oriented polearm. Do you mean polearm stabs for lengths between 115-150? Hoplite stabs are also quite good. 1h/2h/polearm stabs now receive similar delays and the strongest 1h stabs are barely at the level of the weakest spears in damage with even worse swings for hybrids.

They buffed agi so splitting WPF between melee and ranged is easier. Str characters don't really get any benefit they could have, like IF being useful or PS being better than movement speed in melee. In fact they nerfed str characters unnecessarily

I think that wpf for pure builds are too high for agi builds, and that the level of hybridization available is pretty good. With a more pure ranged build, you can get ~60 free wpf compared to an agi build from before the wpf change. If you want melee proficiency above 90, you achieve a very similar split than before the wpf change. (ex. 100 in melee, 158 in ranged in the past for a level 33 8 WM build. 100 in melee, 160 in ranged/ 104 and 158 right now). I agree that strength builds with 9 agi or lower got shafted, but I think 12-15 agi and 18 for high level builds are all quite good. People lived with 130-150 wpf in the past and they can now. Compared to the past(as a high level), you don't get significantly more wpf unless you are 9WM or above.

The main issue is the balancing pushes more people to play ranged/cav when there should be key reasons not to, because taking them creates some negative trait for the build. To even defend against ranged half heartedly you need to spend like 5 points into shields, which you could spend on PD instead (or more stats if you go Xbow).

You have a point. I personally believe you only need 2-3 shield if you aren't going to use it much. IF and PS should probably be buffed and speed bonus reduced based on what I see from the damage reporter, but I think speed bonus is the only thing that can be changed.

[StonedSteel]

If someone is a competent native player, they can start cRPG, skip the fun, join a clan, borrow some looms from armory and be near the top the scoreboard within the first 10 minutes of their cRPG career. I don't see how that's "too grindy".

The only problem is that no new players actually know about this route. The newbies all start at level 1 and spam chat "how do I buy weapons?". The website (or even the mod itself) needs an auto-tutorial for new players. Point them toward Peasants United, explain Skip the Fun, etc.

I never intended on coming to CRPG, Native was enough. Then it wasnt, i have simply done it all too many times, i played that game for years using vanilla gear. Then i got bored, and looked for other melee games to try. Chiv was a good laugh, WOTR looked promising, but didnt have a clear direction, and died due to trying to fix the game through nerfs and buffs. During my stay at WOTR, tons of people went on and on about CRPG, it was the first time i heard people talking about it in a good light. So i finally looked it up, saw a video of a guying using a Windless SteelCraft Bar Mace. I downloaded the mod asap.

And i did as Phew suggests, i made a STF, bought a bar mace, and had some fun for a day or two. At the time, i thought it was just the bar mace's weight, the swings felt very "off" from what i grew used to in Native.

Only a matter of time before i wanted to try the real deal. And i have to say, my first 1-7ish gens, was a complete disaster, i remember feeling completely hopeless, wondering if i would ever get a positive KD, for someone used to getting a positive KD on any Native server, it was very frustrating. And i got sick of it, and quit. Then i came back, idk why i came back, but i sure as hell stayed away from siege and battle.

THIS IS THE INTERESTING PART AND IF YOU READ ANY OF THIS, MAKE SURE ITS THE PART BELOW THIS SENTENCE.

I didnt know what DTV stood for, so i finally checked it out. WOW, just WOW, for a Native player who had only fought Vanilla bots, CRPG's old DTV was like a whole new world to new, it was fantastic!

It also served a much greater importance than providing me with fun. It provided me with bots, predictable yes, which is exactly what i needed to relearn the swings. I have been playing M&B games since the early original ( you know, with Zendar as a neutral town ) and yes, CRPG swings are that different, learning the stab on a longsword felt like that movie Wanted, curving a stab into someone was a ridiculous concept to me.

And yeah DTV was extreamly exploitable, on maps like Rizi, Istanar etc, you could make it to tinnies while losing only a few people. And maps would last a number of rounds, people would purposely lose the last rnd on Rizi to keep farming the map, it was like an 2-3 hour event...it was AWESOME!!!

And with the xp i made, and the practice on bots, i finally made my way out of DTV, and onto Siege, and slowly yet surly onto Battle.

And there you have it FIPS, so fucking what DTV was exploitable...only new players exploited it...it was their one and ONLY chance to get reasonable xp, loomed gear, etc.

I think DTV should be reverted back to the old school freeroam FUN exploitable dtv. You want new players? give them a mode they can have fun on too. And again, who fing cares DTV was exploitable? Do high lvl players really feel cheated knowing some new player got decent xp for once? Its not like they just stand there and collect, people still have to play the map and kill all the bots.

Battle and Siege for new players is too much, they are just victims until they can understand the game better and get gear that suits their style, DTV provides this WITHOUT frustration, Battle and Siege do not.

[Grumbs]

Teeth doing well with a stabbing polearm doesn't really say much about the balance of the weapon imo. You could nerf pole stab more and see similar results if the player is good enough. Doesn't mean its balanced with other weapons though

[GOBBLINKINGREATLEADER]

I never played DTV (seriously not even fucking once, it looks like lame shit that would only entertain 14 year olds, sorry guys just being honest) but I feel that it should revert to its old form. People liked it better that way. It allowed more character, it was a game mode with more individualism, creativity, etc, instead of the lame simplified shit it apparently is now.

also i think all this whining about balance is just bitching from players who have spent entirely too much time on the game, its not the reason we may or may not have less players

i think its more reasonable to assume we have less players is because we force them through too many hoops that are too high and like some of them are on fire or something (like them having no looms at all, no friends to rely on, and a grind that feels pointless when you've played for 2 hours to get to level 13 and you still couldn't kill an enemy even if they stood there for 2 minutes and allowed you to hit them repeatedly.)

i never played ANY mount and blade multiplayer before coming to this game in the good old days when I was Big_Uncle_Ruckus and ran around throwing stones at people and saying "Lynched", "Martin Luther King'd", etc, any time i got a kill. I only played because Sandy begged me to try the game over and over, and I remember hating the grind because it was just downright stupid. it still is.

[Enver]

Its apparent to me now that the devs simply do not care nor have the vision to see CRPG to its full potential. Its a Shame

[Xant]

Its apparent to me now that the devs simply do not care nor have the vision to see CRPG to its full potential. Its a Shame

It's apparent to me now that you're retarded. You were shown raw statistics that cRPG is not, in fact, dying. Statistics don't lie.

[Vibe]

Fix the problems that I outline in the beginning of this thread and you just might save CRPG. Your welcome

"graphs don't lie" ~BADPLAYER

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[Prpavi]

Speed bonus man speed bonus, there's no need for it to exist and it only brings further imbalance to most "critical" classes, ranged, cav and horse ranged.

There is no reason for me to get dismounted from one 1h stab at full speed, just as there is no reason for that same stab to take only 5/10% off my horse riding away, same goes for arrows and throwing weapons on and off horseback, way too many chances and posibilities. You can call it relism but really realism and online gaming don't go well together imo.

Unfortunatley that abomintaion is hardcoded into Warband.

[Harpag]

If we want new fresh meat for butchering, let new players to adapt. Stop nudging them from rooftops lol and chambering peasants scythe attacks you bitches. Stop focusing on them, let them grow a bit ... aah and stop calling them my old friends lol - they still don't know our crpg language  + praise Panos  - servers are full to late night