Thx for unleashing the next ranged shitstorm

[Corsair831]

you guys all just fucking suck at playing cav

i play the_responsible_cow with a fucking great lance and a destrier and i can still kill archers with no problem
if you can't kill ranged with a heavy horse and a cav sword / lance, then simple, you just suck
the way the game is balanced with regards to archery/cavalry right now is absolutely fair IMO

(Disclaimer: i don't play ranged, so i am not biased on their side)

EDIT: san please don't listen to these guys, look amongst the ranks of the complainers and you'll see there isn't one decent player complaining, the calibre of players here wanting horses to be buffed again are the ones who completely rely on overpowered horses to get all of their kills, instead of actually knowing how to play the game. the balance is perfect the way you have it now.

[Grumpy_Nic]

u guys do know that you're trying to bring reasonable arguments in "The Chamber of Tears"? Fuck ranged spam and fuck its parents

Edit: the reason I created this thread in this part of the forum is to QQ

[Corsair831]

EU1 5 minutes ago...

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i count 8 archers on a team of presumably 30 players, i completely fail to see the problem with this. if you have a clue how to play this game you will --not-- attack that archer fortress, and you will instead wait for the flags system (the whole point of which is to stop archers camping roofs), and win the round.

EDIT: it should also be noted here perhaps that your team is 10 players ahead at this point, so perhaps that ranged roof camping, whilst yes it is lame, is both not effective and easily counterable )))

[Grumpy_Nic]

i count 8 archers on a team of presumably 30 players, i choose to completely fail to see the problem with this. if you have a clue how to play this game you will --not-- attack that archer fortress, and you will instead wait for the flags system (the whole point of which is to stop archers camping roofs), and win the round.

EDIT: it should also be noted here perhaps that your team is 10 players ahead at this point, so perhaps that ranged roof camping, whilst yes it is lame, is both not effective and easily counterable )))

Fixed it, you're welcome

[San]

If they're confident in their arguments, they would put this in game balance discussion. I can always admit to being wrong with a good case against any choice. I made a topic for reducing some of the difficulties a bit since admittedly the charger+ don't *need* 8 riding difficulty and it didn't receive enough votes. There's also that partial respec that could've been handled better, too.

If 1 team has good ranged and the other team doesn't, it's always going to be a problem without a sufficient amount of hard counters.

[Kafein]

i count 8 archers on a team of presumably 30 players, i completely fail to see the problem with this. if you have a clue how to play this game you will --not-- attack that archer fortress, and you will instead wait for the flags system (the whole point of which is to stop archers camping roofs), and win the round.

EDIT: it should also be noted here perhaps that your team is 10 players ahead at this point, so perhaps that ranged roof camping, whilst yes it is lame, is both not effective and easily counterable )))

Yes let's have a boring game. Because it's totally reasonable to wait 5 minutes every single round in order to play for ten seconds and win if you are lucky. If you even are lucky with flag placement that is (I'm pretty sure at least two flag zones on that map are inside the death zone of that roof).

If this tactic is uneffective anyway (which it absolutely isn't because not that many people are tryhards), why not just remove all those accessible rooftops ? They bring nothing of value to the game.

I'm not saying flags are useless, because obviously it was an important step forward. But it wasn't enough.

you guys all just fucking suck at playing cav

i play the_responsible_cow with a fucking great lance and a destrier and i can still kill archers with no problem
if you can't kill ranged with a heavy horse and a cav sword / lance, then simple, you just suck
the way the game is balanced with regards to archery/cavalry right now is absolutely fair IMO

(Disclaimer: i don't play ranged, so i am not biased on their side)

EDIT: san please don't listen to these guys, look amongst the ranks of the complainers and you'll see there isn't one decent player complaining, the calibre of players here wanting horses to be buffed again are the ones who completely rely on overpowered horses to get all of their kills, instead of actually knowing how to play the game. the balance is perfect the way you have it now.

It's hilarous you start arguing skill when you are the guy complaining about horses being too strong against ground troops. Horse moves are telegraphed and everything they do is immediately counterable no matter what class you play. I call L2P.

[Sniger]

Remove or change valour. Then you will decrease amount of 2h/polearms and then amount of range will naturally drop.

Its pretty simple. But fanboys are blind ;) 

[Corsair831]

Yes let's have a boring game. Because it's totally reasonable to wait 5 minutes every single round in order to play for ten seconds and win if you are lucky. If you even are lucky with flag placement that is (I'm pretty sure at least two flag zones on that map are inside the death zone of that roof).

If this tactic is uneffective anyway (which it absolutely isn't because not that many people are tryhards), why not just remove all those accessible rooftops ? They bring nothing of value to the game.

I'm not saying flags are useless, because obviously it was an important step forward. But it wasn't enough.

It's hilarous you start arguing skill when you are the guy complaining about horses being too strong against ground troops. Horse moves are telegraphed and everything they do is immediately counterable no matter what class you play. I call L2P.

flag doesn't take 5 minutes, you're bad

[Mr.K.]

flag doesn't take 5 minutes, you're bad

It takes long for the rest of your team to die usually. The flag spawns when there's only five guys in one team alive. And in that map it spawns right under the archer roof most of the time.

Can't really say if heavy cav is or isn't effective against ranged anymore, cuz devs still haven't given us a real respec to actually play the class. Most of the time when I see you on EU1 you just couchlance unaware opponents in the back with retarded suicide charges Corsair I doubt you do very well against a group of archers with that paper horse

[Crob28]

Please don't, I love being able to couch on my donkey

Can confirm. He actually managed to donkey-couch me during DonkeyRace preparation. Not even with a 13 riding STF but with a normal char.

Only thing that shocks me here is that I haven't seen a STF with a practice lance named Donkey Punch

[Grumbs]

If they're confident in their arguments, they would put this in game balance discussion. I can always admit to being wrong with a good case against any choice. I made a topic for reducing some of the difficulties a bit since admittedly the charger+ don't *need* 8 riding difficulty and it didn't receive enough votes. There's also that partial respec that could've been handled better, too.

If 1 team has good ranged and the other team doesn't, it's always going to be a problem without a sufficient amount of hard counters.

,
Why do you (not you but dev team) insist on making them good all rounders then if they should have counters?

A xbower can have a good shield (anti ranged and anti melee), great melee weapons, plenty of WPF to split enough into melee and xbow, decent armour. Now you even gave more/better choices with anti cav 1 slot weapons. People with a melee inclination see no reason not to play ranged as well now, its not just ranged players that go ranged. Jack of all trades with few drawbacks push people towards that playstyle.

Its not just xbowers either, archers have good armour and very good melee weapons too, even 2 handers if they want. You shouldn't have your cake and eat it too, you should make a choice between being strong in one area or another. Melee doesn't shoot anyone..but ranged should shoot and have good melee capability? If its to stop kiting it doesn't work, they just kite until forced into melee anyway. Some 0 slot 1 handers are better than 1 slot. Its backward.

You could mess around with the slot system. Stop xbowers using shields. Get ranged using 0 slot 1 handers and make them light and without stabs

[Kafein]

If as a dedicated melee you fail to kill archers and xbowers in melee you are just unlucky or plainly not as skilled as they are. I think it's mostly fine, except the ability to turtle behind a shield, maybe. What isn't fine is that the reverse is completely untrue. It doesn't take any failure to be shot to death, hence the best player can be killed by an absolute scrub easily, if the scrub uses a ranged weapon (like all true scrubs do). That has to change.

[San]

I don't use xbow very often, so I tend to not really make any suggestions about it. "Item balancer" is just a glorified game balance discussion thread. The only changes to xbows that I can think of involve game mechanics changes. I don't think they can be balanced in the way you speak purely through stat alterations.

Even though you're generally correct, I believe that the difference in wpf between a pure melee build and an xbow hybrid is enough for a noticeable advantage over the latter. I also still don't understand how an xbower with a shield is much better than one without, since there is a skill investment, slot investment, and weight penalty applied to the existing 10-16 weight from the xbow+bolts.

[Gurnisson]

I also still don't understand how an xbower with a shield is much better than one without, since there is a skill investment, slot investment, and weight penalty applied to the existing 10-16 weight from the xbow+bolts.

Because the crossbow class is mostly used to shoot my old friendchers down, and join in the melee brawl in the end. Using a shield to get in cover is a massive asset for the job you're supposed to do. Without it, you're a huge target for enemy archers and will have problems reloading on several types of maps, which might make you a worse-off infantry almost from the get-go.

I had a 2h/xbow alt that I changed to 1h/xbow after the free respec, and I grabbed 4 shield skill as well. This often massively boosted my influence on rounds.

[Grumbs]

If as a dedicated melee you fail to kill archers and xbowers in melee you are just unlucky or plainly not as skilled as they are. I think it's mostly fine, except the ability to turtle behind a shield, maybe. What isn't fine is that the reverse is completely untrue. It doesn't take any failure to be shot to death, hence the best player can be killed by an absolute scrub easily, if the scrub uses a ranged weapon (like all true scrubs do). That has to change.

I don't see why a melee character shouldn't have a significant advantage in melee range. To make up for no ranged capability the ranged player should be similarly handicapped when they're at melee range. That to me is a fundamental of game balance - pros and cons, strengths and weaknesses, playing to your strengths and minimising your weaknesses by the way you play. If a ranged player finds himself in melee range I don't see why he should have such good melee capability as well. Simply having manual block eliminates the melee player's damage, the same as a shield can against ranged. Why do they need more?

About shields..they obviously give you an extra layer of protection - both from actual counters i.e ranged (melee vs melee with few downsides isn't a counter), and it allows even the worst players to take a melee player out of the combat until the shield breaks, unless they outnumber the person 2:1+ and can nudge. If you don't spend your time hitting a shield they will just run away to reload, if you do spend your time hitting the shield you aren't helping your team in more effective areas. Then add on top the ridiculous 1 hand stab and they even have 0 slot 1 handers with a 29 pierce insta stab and OK swings. The balance is just really bad when it comes to hybriding melee with ranged