0.3.3.6

[Joseph Porta]

I think the sweetspot might've moved a little to the right? Anyways, relying on reach is silly in the first place..

[Macropus]

Is it only me who thinks it's quite logical that the rightswing gets stuck less because it lost its reach on the right side?
I'll try to illustrate that with my amazing painting skills.

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So actually I can see how it feels like a loss of reach for Corsair if he's used to turn into swings and hit earlier in the animation. But I think it's just a matter of getting used to the new one.

PS: not based on any reliable info, just what I see how it looks ingame.

[Corsair831]

Did you see the preview for the altered animation? That's why I gave you those links again. Extract the brf into your resources and see if you like how that animation looks.

All I can say is that we simply have different experiences. I am still able to use right swing easily for weapon lengths from 75 to 88 with 0 adjustment to my playstyle. I was fighting another 1h and moved to an angle that would have glanced in the past, and he dealt ~7 damage, enough to stun. That's a step in the right direction imo. I agreed that Tydeus needed to edit it further to fix the unnatural look, which we will be able to experience the updated animation next patch and give more feedback if needed.

If you used right swing 2012 and earlier, that was pretty bad. Its only use was to punish whiffs (where you have to move into the attack/opponent kept moving forward after missing, not actually outranging in most cases). Any other usage only brought punishment by much faster attacks.

ok, i think i can explain this in background

i come originally from native, as does my playstyle. native playstyle is completely about spamming leftswing and target switching with the right swing. right swing target switch gets you up to half your kills, and the original range of it is perfect.

in crpg, hardly anyone knows how to do this, the majority of people either use

ridiculously long swords AKA nordic champion sword, etc etc (these compensate for the lack of a player's ability to use range well, but IMO aren't as effective; pre change that is)
or really short weapons, AKA maces, steel pick, etc etc, where right swing target switching isn't really an option because the weapon is so short. with this playstyle, you simply facehug and spam all directions.

the problem is, as i stated in my earlier post, it's not the guys using short weapons, who simply spam all of the attacks, and it's not the guys using nordic champion swords, who already have insanely long swords (and probably benefit from the animation making them shorter), who suffer; it is the guys like myself, trying to use actual mid-tier 1h, which have been completely ruined by this animation.

i'm not joking when i tell you i can't target switch any more, and my ability to out-range longswords etc is Ruined.

this affects my playstyle so hard, wheras before i could put longsword spamming nabs on the back foot, now they're free to kite me with impunity; i have no say on the weapon range situation, it's just so bad.

change it back pls.

[Smoothrich]

ok, i think i can explain this in background

i come originally from native, as does my playstyle. native playstyle is completely about spamming leftswing and target switching with the right swing. right swing target switch gets you up to half your kills, and the original range of it is perfect.

in crpg, hardly anyone knows how to do this, the majority of people either use

ridiculously long swords AKA nordic champion sword, etc etc (these compensate for the lack of a player's ability to use range well, but IMO aren't as effective; pre change that is)
or really short weapons, AKA maces, steel pick, etc etc, where right swing target switching isn't really an option because the weapon is so short. with this playstyle, you simply facehug and spam all directions.

the problem is, as i stated in my earlier post, it's not the guys using short weapons, who simply spam all of the attacks, and it's not the guys using nordic champion swords, who already have insanely long swords (and probably benefit from the animation making them shorter), who suffer; it is the guys like myself, trying to use actual mid-tier 1h, which have been completely ruined by this animation.

i'm not joking when i tell you i can't target switch any more, and my ability to out-range longswords etc is Ruined.

this affects my playstyle so hard, wheras before i could put longsword spamming nabs on the back foot, now they're free to kite me with impunity; i have no say on the weapon range situation, it's just so bad.

change it back pls.

its sad to see someone have a public breakdown when their playstyle of so many years gets arbitrarily changed for no reason, ruining the class/build/game in general that they once were uncomfortably, possibly autistically, passionate about.  funny how it happens every single patch, with a different class every time. twice so if you are ranged, and pretty much never if you are 2hand (thankfully. lol @ non2handers)  by now it should be part of the charm

[Kafein]

Corsair does make a point.

That now, the maximum reach of the right swing comes later in the animation, hence you have to wait longer before hitting, which is a bad thing because it slows down the weapon. Not a tremendously important point IMO compared to allowing the right swing to be used with something on one's right, which is a big plus. At least in siege.

Actually, I think a better change would have been to rationalize weapon collisions across the board. First, overheads should never ever cause backhits, no matter the weapon used. Second, starting a sideswing inside a wall with 2h and sometimes polearms, works just fine. As opposed to doing the same thing with 1h (hence the right swing problem). That's just stupid. Usually, 2h and pole collisions work when the weapon moves towards a wall, not when it's inside and moves outside, even though that should not work either.

[Teeth]

If you used right swing 2012 and earlier, that was pretty bad. Its only use was to punish whiffs (where you have to move into the attack/opponent kept moving forward after missing, not actually outranging in most cases). Any other usage only brought punishment by much faster attacks.

I loved the rightswing in 2012 and earlier as a 102 length 1h gives you enough reach on the rightswing to 'outrange' 120 length 2h sideswings. When I say outrange I mean bait them into thinking they can outreach you and then through careful timing and movement hit them in the face just before they do. Simply because most shielders can RMB themselves into close range and start ye old leftswing procedure, I think the old 1h right swing wasn't used to its full potential by a vast majority of the playerbase, which might have caused people to constantly underestimate the reach constantly. I played more 1h without shield than with, which quickly teaches you what utility the right swing offers you. I remember me and Bjord being pretty much the only 1h without shields and our duels consisted almost exclusively out of wiggling right swings at eachother, working on our range control.

The completely different animations which each had their own uses is what made 1h without shield so fun to play even when it got outshined by longswords speed, reach and damage wise. Which is why I think it is very important that 1h rightswing does not get shorter, not even a bit. Every cm matters. The new angle of course makes it shorter than it was mid swing, but it should be the same reach at its full extension and I am not entirely sure if it is. Now if you tell me it is, I'll take your word for it and revise my timing and angling. If it isn't, then please try to make it a bit longer.

[Mr.K.]

I haven't played onehander a lot lately, but a feeling it has the same reach in end of the animation (50-60% or something?), but less reach in after like 30% which was when the 1H right swing used to be at the longest (slightly turned left). But ever since they buffed the stab animation, right swing already lost some of it's value. With the old right swing animation stab was already a lot longer than the right swing - even after the reach was nerfed. Like Teeth and a few others, I liked the right swing quite a bit when I played without a shield with my 12/27 long espada spammer, it used to catch people off guard with it's reach. I don't think the current right swing is bad, it just looks a bit wonky, but some of the magic in 1H has disappeared with the animation changes. Like polearm, it used to be about selecting the correct attack for each situation and every attack had it's weaknesses and strengths. Now it's a lot more spammy.

[San]

I tested the old right swing reach against dummies back in 2013 when it was first changed, and tested it again for the altered animation. I later looked at the animation brf files themselves and saw no reach difference. That's the basis for my conclusions as well as from playing in-game.

I believe that the slowness allowed better movement into swings at the cost of more precise release timing as I believe Teeth is describing. What I am trying to get at is that requiring different timing doesn't mean the length extension itself was shortened. In general, I'm neutral on the new right swing since it hardly changed anything for me. I would just like it to have a more natural look.

[Corsair831]

I tested the old right swing reach against dummies back in 2013 when it was first changed, and tested it again for the altered animation. I later looked at the animation brf files themselves and saw no reach difference. That's the basis for my conclusions as well as from playing in-game.

I believe that the slowness allowed better movement into swings at the cost of more precise release timing as I believe Teeth is describing. What I am trying to get at is that requiring different timing doesn't mean the length extension itself was shortened. In general, I'm neutral on the new right swing since it hardly changed anything for me. I would just like it to have a more natural look.

am i the only person in this game who's class it's completely ruined?! does no one else play a medium shielder build with a medium sword?!
maybe i should go join the rest of the guys plate and strength crutching 1h with incredibly long 1h, or the other half spamming with short weapons

---"cRPG, coming that little bit closer to forcing everyone play the same build with each patch"---

[San]

95 length is medium?

[Phew]

am i the only person in this game who's class it's completely ruined?! does no one else play a medium shielder build with a medium sword?!
maybe i should go join the rest of the guys plate and strength crutching 1h with incredibly long 1h, or the other half spamming with short weapons

---"cRPG, coming that little bit closer to forcing everyone play the same build with each patch"---

You aren't a rarity, almost every long-time 1h on NA I can think of prefers swords in the 85-98cm range (as I do). I'm ambivalent about the new right swing, because I hardly used it before and I hardly use it now. Stab is just more effective against people on your right side (faster, more damage, and better reach). On the rare occasions I do right swing, it's usually just to feint into a stab.

It's hard to complain about 1h animations nowadays, considering the state of the class 2 years ago (stab and right swing were slow, worthless glancefests). Melee animations are as balanced as they've ever been, so I'd prefer the devs/balancers focus on improving the game modes/autobalance/reward systems rather than tweaking animations until the mod dies.

[Teeth]

After playing on my 1h and focusing on maximizing my reach I do feel it is the same length. Hit a good lot of unsuspecting twohanders in the face and got some phantom reach complaints, just like with the old rightswing. With most animations hitting earlier in the arc allows you to hit faster without much loss of reach, if you unlearn that habit with the 1h rightswing it is long as hell. Still think the angle looks a bit awkward, but as far as I could see the revised animation addresses exactly that.

am i the only person in this game who's class it's completely ruined?! does no one else play a medium shielder build with a medium sword?!
maybe i should go join the rest of the guys plate and strength crutching 1h with incredibly long 1h, or the other half spamming with short weapons

---"cRPG, coming that little bit closer to forcing everyone play the same build with each patch"---

Yes, you are the only person who's class gets ruined by this change as you are also the only person who is so resistant to any changes to Native mechanics that you refuse to even attempt to adapt. Obviously Native is the epitome of game design and the way you play is the epitome of skillful play.

I also don't see why using a 95 reach sword makes you get hurt by a range reduction more than a 102 length sword. Slightly lower reach on the 102 swords would mean that you can no longer sensible contend with 120 length 2h and 140 length polearm swings, while you could before. Like 50% of the melee in EU use a weapon close to those values, so the change in people who's range bitch you are is a lot bigger for the 102 length swords, as it would be quite daft to try to outreach a Danish with a 95 reach sword pre-patch.

[Corsair831]

95 length is medium?

what, yes

After playing on my 1h and focusing on maximizing my reach I do feel it is the same length. Hit a good lot of unsuspecting twohanders in the face and got some phantom reach complaints, just like with the old rightswing. With most animations hitting earlier in the arc allows you to hit faster without much loss of reach, if you unlearn that habit with the 1h rightswing it is long as hell. Still think the angle looks a bit awkward, but as far as I could see the revised animation addresses exactly that.
Yes, you are the only person who's class gets ruined by this change as you are also the only person who is so resistant to any changes to Native mechanics that you refuse to even attempt to adapt. Obviously Native is the epitome of game design and the way you play is the epitome of skillful play.

I also don't see why using a 95 reach sword makes you get hurt by a range reduction more than a 102 length sword. Slightly lower reach on the 102 swords would mean that you can no longer sensible contend with 120 length 2h and 140 length polearm swings, while you could before. Like 50% of the melee in EU use a weapon close to those values, so the change in people who's range bitch you are is a lot bigger for the 102 length swords, as it would be quite daft to try to outreach a Danish with a 95 reach sword pre-patch.

with a 102 reach sword you already don't have to worry about longswords, medium 2h axes etc etc, because a 102 reach 1h sword is just insanely long

the point is that now my sword can't contend with them at all, i have to get in so close that i can leftswing and it's just pathetic

also, yes, native play is the epitome of skillful play and anyone playing in another manner than carrying a shield spear and sword, or a shield throwing weapon and sword, a bow/xbow or a horse, lance and shield, is a crpg scrub and needs retraining in the art of native master race (NMR)

[Teeth]

Yep, and if the animation would have been shorter a 102 reach sword would no longer be able to contend with Greatswords and Poleaxes. Same thing, except there are probably a lot more Greatswords and Poleaxes on EU 1.

[Corsair831]

Yep, and if the animation would have been shorter a 102 reach sword would no longer be able to contend with Greatswords and Poleaxes. Same thing, except there are probably a lot more Greatswords and Poleaxes on EU 1.

no way there are more greatswords than longswords