Author Topic: That thing called "perfect imbalance"  (Read 1446 times)

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Offline phnxhdsn

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Re: That thing called "perfect imbalance"
« Reply #15 on: March 26, 2014, 07:13:46 pm »
+4
Using their example of champion A is slightly imbalanced until people find out A is weak to B and so on is yeah a great thing in league fo legends but in cRPG for someone to change a single thing to their build they often have to respec and lose half of their precious exp or pay well over 3 million in gold, which is just ridiculous, they need to decrease the cost of free respec dramatically so people can evolve with the meta-game.

I see no drawbacks in making free respecs cheaper, people with lots of characters would miss out, but they could just combine the exp onto one character or something or just leave it and  they can lose a little bit of exp.

Edit: Also Shields and arrows weigh way too much imo, obviously if arrows were less weight it would be too big of a buff but it's just so stupid that they weigh that much and the problem with using a shield against ranged imo is that if there is more than 1 which is quite often nowadays they can easily shoot you from the side because of the slower speed.

AND now all of the heavy 2h's have a pole-arm mode over 120length which means that any 2h with a brain (Okay there's not that many) can stop cav and therefore can counter cav some of the time which is just contributing to the 2h master race :(
« Last Edit: March 26, 2014, 07:23:36 pm by phnxhdsn »
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Offline Teeth

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Re: That thing called "perfect imbalance"
« Reply #16 on: March 26, 2014, 07:30:11 pm »
+5
Meh, from what I have seen of Extra Credits they try really hard come up with catchy concepts in really just logical and simple game design and then pretending like these concepts exist and are used like they describe them, while I highly doubt they are. Also, the voiceover sound is really annoying.

People complaining about different things is not caused by perfect imbalance and trying to apply the concept to cRPG seems rather futile to me as in essence it refers to extremely simple game design. Extra Credits is just much ado about nothing.

Offline BlueKnight

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Re: That thing called "perfect imbalance"
« Reply #17 on: March 26, 2014, 07:33:04 pm »
+2
AND now all of the heavy 2h's have a pole-arm mode over 120length which means that any 2h with a brain (Okay there's not that many) can stop cav and therefore can counter cav some of the time which is just contributing to the 2h master race :(

So true, I've recently been stopping horses while using longsword in polearm mode... it's so gay and retarded, yet so effective... it shouldn't work like this.
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Offline Teeth

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Re: That thing called "perfect imbalance"
« Reply #18 on: March 26, 2014, 07:48:38 pm »
+3
Plate shield vs longbow w/ tatar arrows - Shield can pretty much take a volley. Very good protection.
Plate shield vs almost any thrower - Shield can take some beating. Should take more than 1 throwing lance to break it. Decent, though still temporary, protection.
Plate shield vs arbalest w/ steel bolts - Shield can take several hits from arbalest and not care. Very good protection.
I really don't think you get what the problems are with shielders countering ranged. It is definitely not that shields aren't tough enough and it is not the 1 vs 1 scenario's. It is the coverage, it is the kiting, it is the crossfiring.

Plate shield vs 2 longbows standing 10 meters from eachother, shield doesn't block a thing as it is small as shit and people shoot past it. Also when you try to attack the one archer you get shot in the face by the other. If one archer runs away you gotta let go of your block or get outrun, making you even more prone to get shot by the other one. They will hold their shot and as soon as you face one, the other shoots you. No protection whatsoever

Okay, perhaps a 2 vs 1 scenario should mean that the shielder has a tough time.

10 plate shield shielders versus 10 longbows in an open field. The only way 10 shielders would counter 10 archers is if they would all chase down one of them and still they would get shot a lot. Archers that get pushed will run away, forcing the shielders to lower their shields or be unable to catch them. However the fear factor and the lack of communication causes the shielders to hesitate or go out one by one. If there are 10 archers versus 10 shielders alive at the end of the round I would bet on the archers. No protection whatsoever

This is what I often see archers in EU do. I have seen for example Steevee and Archpoop clutch rounds, get 10 to 1 k/d's and top kills on many occasion. They go to the edge of the battlefield, nobody dares to touch them. With the lack of communication nobody wants to take the risk of charging them, be it cav or shielder. Then when they near the end of the round they clutch the round because nobody knows what to do against them. Archery is extremely effective in small groups even without any melee support whatsoever and I think that is wrong.

Offline Grumpy_Nic

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Re: That thing called "perfect imbalance"
« Reply #19 on: March 26, 2014, 07:48:51 pm »
0
So true, I've recently been stopping horses while using longsword in polearm mode... it's so gay and retarded, yet so effective... it shouldn't work like this.

Can a flamberge rear horses? It got polearm stab and has 152 length but no secondary mode

Offline //saxon

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Re: That thing called "perfect imbalance"
« Reply #20 on: March 26, 2014, 07:53:55 pm »
+1
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Offline Johammeth

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Re: That thing called "perfect imbalance"
« Reply #21 on: March 26, 2014, 08:04:38 pm »
0
cRPG is well balanced because people howl in outrage and drench their monitors in nerd-spittle no matter which class kills them.
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Offline phnxhdsn

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Re: That thing called "perfect imbalance"
« Reply #22 on: March 26, 2014, 08:25:02 pm »
0
Can a flamberge rear horses? It got polearm stab and has 152 length but no secondary mode

I'm not sure but i believe it doesn't as it doesn't actually count as a pole.. But you can even out-range lances with the side-swing on that bad-boy so you'll be okay :DD
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Offline San

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Re: That thing called "perfect imbalance"
« Reply #23 on: March 26, 2014, 08:40:49 pm »
+3
Extra credits is pretentious about things, but it's worth it to get another perspective (even if you don't agree with everything, which is often for me).

Offline Kafein

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Re: That thing called "perfect imbalance"
« Reply #24 on: March 26, 2014, 11:30:11 pm »
0
With a barn (cover from all sides but one), the MotF system and immunity to boredom, shields do counter ranged, as long as your shield can withstand more projectiles than what the enemy has plus what can be found on the floor, which is never.

Offline Ikarus

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Re: That thing called "perfect imbalance"
« Reply #25 on: March 26, 2014, 11:44:11 pm »
0
Sadly, I found melee much more enjoyable than camping in a bush for the whole round, loading my xbow.

I've been thinking about turning one of my characters into a crossbowman again. After all I still could fight in melee with the natural high athletics, and then get some powerful 1slot weapon such as warhammer. But I've turned that idea down: it just isn't as effective as dedicated melee. All I would be doing in the end is watch my team A) getting slaughtered B)slaughtering the enemy team, while I fire a shot every 30 sec, feeling good about myself while not really making a difference in the overall outcome.

Yeeh, reloading takes some time, but for that you don´t have to run up towards enemies.

You don´t have to camp somewhere, you can also play pretty aggressive as an xbow. Also, you can be effective for your team if you dedicate your life in hunting down cav and ranged (and have an eye on your teammates and not hunger too much for kills and peasant shots). Often happens that I manage to shoot an enemy cav who tries to couch/bumpslash some teammate, the shot denies his attack and he simply bumps the guy, or some guys getting buggered by horse archers but can´t get into their reach, then it´s up to you to pew their horses and serve him the enemy on a silver plate. It´s nice for team support, even if you can´t always see it on the scoreboard.
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Offline Jarlek

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Re: That thing called "perfect imbalance"
« Reply #26 on: March 27, 2014, 12:38:09 am »
0
Can a flamberge rear horses? It got polearm stab and has 152 length but no secondary mode
It can't since it's not flagged as a polearm. With the secondary mode on 2h swords you actually change the weapon class (2h <=> pole) and the weapon hitting the horse being a polearm is one of the requirements for a horse rear to happen.
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Offline Penitent

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Re: That thing called "perfect imbalance"
« Reply #27 on: March 27, 2014, 03:01:28 pm »
+1
I really don't think you get what the problems are with shielders countering ranged. It is definitely not that shields aren't tough enough and it is not the 1 vs 1 scenario's. It is the coverage, it is the kiting, it is the crossfiring.

Plate shield vs 2 longbows standing 10 meters from eachother, shield doesn't block a thing as it is small as shit and people shoot past it. Also when you try to attack the one archer you get shot in the face by the other. If one archer runs away you gotta let go of your block or get outrun, making you even more prone to get shot by the other one. They will hold their shot and as soon as you face one, the other shoots you. No protection whatsoever

Okay, perhaps a 2 vs 1 scenario should mean that the shielder has a tough time.

10 plate shield shielders versus 10 longbows in an open field. The only way 10 shielders would counter 10 archers is if they would all chase down one of them and still they would get shot a lot. Archers that get pushed will run away, forcing the shielders to lower their shields or be unable to catch them. However the fear factor and the lack of communication causes the shielders to hesitate or go out one by one. If there are 10 archers versus 10 shielders alive at the end of the round I would bet on the archers. No protection whatsoever

This is what I often see archers in EU do. I have seen for example Steevee and Archpoop clutch rounds, get 10 to 1 k/d's and top kills on many occasion. They go to the edge of the battlefield, nobody dares to touch them. With the lack of communication nobody wants to take the risk of charging them, be it cav or shielder. Then when they near the end of the round they clutch the round because nobody knows what to do against them. Archery is extremely effective in small groups even without any melee support whatsoever and I think that is wrong.

Ugh, you guys.  This never happens.  I rarely ever face 2 archers as a shielder all alone with no other teammates around, and I never play on a team where it's 10 shielders vs 10 archers.  These hypotheticals prove nothing.

A shield never breaks from arrows or bolts.  If they do, stop using a pussy shield and get some shield skill.    You can delay archers until a teamie comes.  You can time their shots somewhat while you advance on one, or line them up so they both can't shoot at you.  You can use a piece of cover to guard a flank and block their arrows until they are out of ammo.  You can try to bum rush them (and get shot a few times) and kill one.  These things don't always work but nothing ALWAYS works.  Still, in these ways, shields counter ranged.

But these scenarios rarely happen.

Usually it is a mix of 2h, cav, shielders, and ranged on the field, or in a castle.  If the 2h charges the enemy ranged, they get shot very much and might die.  If a shielder(s) engage the enemy ranged they get shot much less (or not at all, as the ranged usually just shoot at something they can actually hit), and they usually drive the ranged away so the 2h's can fight in peace, or they die.  In this way, shields counter ranged.

On a siege map, ranged characters do 1 of 2 things.  They are either on the attacking team, and trying to get the flag, or they are defending and shooting at the attackers.  In both scenarios, the shielder just has to raise his shield and he can climb a ladder with impunity, or guard the flag and soak up arrows -- thus negating the ranged to an extent.  In this way shields counter ranged.

When an archer is up on a wall (Attacking or defending, or in battle) sniping people, a 2h usually can't go up and get them...they will get shot while climbing the ladder/stairs.  A shielder can go right up and not even flinch...and take out the sniper.  In this way, shields counter ranged.

Unlike the 10v10 archers against shielders team, these scenarios I list actually happen all the time.

There are many more examples.  Use your imaginations!
« Last Edit: March 27, 2014, 03:05:20 pm by Penitent »

Offline Jarlek

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Re: That thing called "perfect imbalance"
« Reply #28 on: March 27, 2014, 06:49:28 pm »
+1
Ugh, you guys.  This never happens.  I rarely ever face 2 archers as a shielder all alone with no other teammates around, and I never play on a team where it's 10 shielders vs 10 archers.  These hypotheticals prove nothing.
You also don't play on EU.

10 or more archers is pretty common over here. For each team. Both on battle and siege.
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Offline Penitent

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Re: That thing called "perfect imbalance"
« Reply #29 on: March 27, 2014, 07:13:54 pm »
0
You also don't play on EU.

10 or more archers is pretty common over here. For each team. Both on battle and siege.

Having 10 archers on a team is not rare.  Having ONLY 10 archers and no one else against a team of ONLY 10 shielders is a ridiculous scenario -- and that is the scenario teeth was using to show how shielders do not counter ranged, and the scenario I was rebuffing.

You guys play how you want, I'll continue to eat ranged players like they are canned catfood and laugh at the rest.