Nerf Ranged 2014

[Kafein]

Right. It wasn't targeted at you, at least not solely. I'm trying to change the conversation because the one you guys are having(in both of the anti-ranged threads atm) is pointless. We're not going to nerf ranged into the ground so that melee and cav becomes the only enjoyable play style. Ranged may get some nerfs, but it won't be anything major, and I don't think we're going to go back to when the longbow and rus bow were the easiest bows to use, while also having the most damage.

Instead, I'd like to hear what people think about having MotF(Master of the Field) spawning at the start of every round, at 6 minutes, or when 2/3 of a team has died. And for the sake of the conversation, assume balanced flag locations.

That's easy IMO. Always spawn it at the start of the round. If you want to further improve on that, increase the radius and more importantly slow down capture speed.

If you want something a little bit softer, maybe make them visible from the start of the round but not actually active until some time has passed. Not sure that is technically possible though.

[//saxon]

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[Leshma]

Instead, I'd like to hear what people think about having MotF(Master of the Field) spawning at the start of every round, at 6 minutes, or when 2/3 of a team has died. And for the sake of the conversation, assume balanced flag locations.

I don't often play battle, but when I do freaking hate that MotF spawning first round of every map. If you make it every round, then you'll completely remove enjoyment factor out of battle.

[Templar_Steevee]

I don't like shields, sometimes their magic force field (especially while mounted) are catching most of arrows IMO should hit player. Especially 0 slot shields have hillarious force field.

I almost forgot that it's nerf ranged post

All I know is archery on foot (i never blamed my soul plaing HA or HX more than 20 minutes), and i already suggested in other topic what to do with it.

X-bows are different than bows (playstyle, melee ability, dmg per hit, fire ratio, penalties to wpf...)

All i would like to change in x-bows are:
1) Making unable to penetrate shields
2.1) Increase STR req for using them (easy way) OR...
2.2) Add skill comparable to PD for bows and remake x-bows dmg (hard way, lots of ballance fails, as always)
3) Cap time of aiming with x-bow without loosing accuracy (5 or maybe more seconds, depended on how heavy x-bow you are using)
4) Give higher penalties to moving speed and accuracy while aiming (archers have it)

I'm ready for lots of rage on me, but i don't care, those are MY opinions and lots of ppl won't agree with me.

I can already said to point no 1:
I know that x-bows were so powerfull irl that they were penertating shields and hitting shielders, but sorry, it's a game... 


modify:

Tydeus can you tell me what you think about suggestions i med in here http://forum.melee.org/game-balance-discussion/how-to-nerf-archery-without-destroying-it/ ?
You wrote something there but not about any other ideas than MOTF, I'm curious what you think about them and about ones i posted in here.

[Tydeus]

I don't often play battle, but when I do freaking hate that MotF spawning first round of every map. If you make it every round, then you'll completely remove enjoyment factor out of battle.

New functionality of MotF will cause it to spawn every single round, it's just a matter of when, and whether or not it's even necessary to use it. As it stands, after the next patch flags will drop any time after 30 seconds into the round that a team has fewer than 6 players left alive.

That's easy IMO. Always spawn it at the start of the round. If you want to further improve on that, increase the radius and more importantly slow down capture speed.

If you want something a little bit softer, maybe make them visible from the start of the round but not actually active until some time has passed. Not sure that is technically possible though.

I suggested changing the radius and capture speed when we first started considering this in IRC. We could do (your) latter suggestion easily if each map only had one flag location, but that takes out an interesting dynamic the system has.

Regardless, I have said it before and I've seen lots of other people state it. On the first round after a map change when MotF spawns in a balanced location, those are some of the most enjoyable rounds I have played in a very long time. This is true regardless of what class I play. As ranged, shooting targets is much easier as they're mostly in one spot. As melee, ranged don't affect the total outcome of the round nearly as much as the otherwise would. As cav, due to everyone basically being in the same spot, it's much easier to skirt around the edges picking players off.

[Leshma]

Do you enjoy battle with MotF, Tydeus?

I don't like shields, sometimes their magic force field (especially while mounted) are catching most of arrows IMO should hit player. Especially 0 slot shields have hillarious force field.

It's so funny when you're able to shoot at dudes with big shields but you can't hit player using buckler...

[El_Infante]

Another nerf ranged post?

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I have a pure xbow build. 170 + 110 in one handed. (13/27)

- It's expensive.
- I am the king of glances.
- I wear light armor.
- Rain fuck me everyday.
- In a melee cluster you are cannon fodder.
- I can't oneshot archers with a full set of heavy xbow (+3) and (+3) steel bolts. Sometimes, even peasants survive to a chest shot.
- Reload time is so slow.
- Being xbowman don't magically converts you in DaveUKR, as being a 2hander do not convert you magically into a Phyrex.
- Xbow population is minimal. For each 4/5 archers you see one xbowman, at least in EU.

Do you want to nerf hybrids? I agree. Nerf unskilled (wpf) players using xbow with accuracy? Of course. But don't fuck us more than we are because the last thing that unbalance this game are the fewer xbowers remaining in servers.

[Tydeus]

Do you enjoy battle with MotF, Tydeus?

If they're in a balanced location, then generally speaking, yes. I don't think they should end the round quite as fast as they currently do, but that shouldn't be hard to change.

[Leshma]

Xbow population is minimal.

 

[El_Infante]

2h my old friend lobbyist since crpg alpha. Devs have the stadistics or they have the way to show us the real percentage of xbow users. I am used to your whinings and nowadays everyone know who is who in QQ nerf that item because it kill me.

[Rumblood]

If they're in a balanced location, then generally speaking, yes. I don't think they should end the round quite as fast as they currently do, but that shouldn't be hard to change.

I think it should pop 1 minute into the round (right after spawning is closed). There should be at least 3 balanced spots that it can pop up from randomly. I think that would...

1: Let everyone on a team spawn before the rush.
2: Keep people from knowing exactly where it will spawn, thus negating #1.

[Grumbs]

If flags spawn too fast the scope for tactical movement through the map will diminish. The maps will play out the same way each time. I'd like it to stay free form, nonlinear and open to changes of tactics. I like the freeform style we have now, were you have two teams trying to think of how best to win without being forced into one area of the map being a huge clusterfuck. I only really want flags to spawn on the first round in order to force the team balance to come into effect sooner, and to force the hand of the last few guys when the round is dragging

This doesn't have much to do with Nerf Ranged though. Regardless xbow builds especially are BS, and the fact that countering ranged with ranged is the norm should have been looked at months ago

[Tydeus]

If flags spawn too fast the scope for tactical movement through the map will diminish. The maps will play out the same way each time. I'd like it to stay free form, nonlinear and open to changes of tactics. I like the freeform style we have now, were you have two teams trying to think of how best to win without being forced into one area of the map being a huge clusterfuck. I only really want flags to spawn on the first round in order to force the team balance to come into effect sooner, and to force the hand of the last few guys when the round is dragging

This doesn't have much to do with Nerf Ranged though. Regardless xbow builds especially are BS, and the fact that countering ranged with ranged is the norm should have been looked at months ago

That's the point of having 3 different, yet equally balanced flag locations. So that you can't just run to the same spot every round using the same tactic. Overall, I agree with the worry you have, it's just that I think your concerns can be fairly easily addressed. If we make it take longer to cap the flag for example, we leave more room for tactics. If we greatly increase the distance required to raise a flag, we can allow the clusterfuck to spread out(especially with intelligent use of scene props).

You say it doesn't have much to do with nerfing ranged, but it is actually a direct nerf to them. It doesn't nerf their individual abilities, it nerfs their overall effectiveness or more accurately, their influence on the round. Ranged players aren't good at holding a position, infantry is. It's a solution to the problem that for once, doesn't affect player builds or items.

[Leshma]

I can always stay near the flag and block with my pickaxe or whatever

Problem with ranged is mentality issue. I've never seen it on NA1, every time I was pleasantly surprised with your archers (except Fallen archers who have same style both on NA and EU servers). But on EU we have cowardly archers like Shokoshugi, Timour and others who will never come close to help their teammates.

I'm siege archer, with 2 ATH, 24 kg of gear on my back and just 1 PS. But I'm often near the flag, helping teammates to either conquer it or defend it. Have 2/18 scores every round. But I'm more useful than any of those sharpshooters with 20/2 scores. How is that possible? That's because they are pussies as I said, they will never come close to the flag. They also will back off if you shoot them unless they are Druzhina (they never play alone, always come in archer packs). Means that just one hit in the body of very accurate EU archer is enough to scare him and force him to change his position, while my team defended/capped the flag and won the round.

You can try to fix this by forcing certain playstyle but you'll never truly fix it. Most long-term archers on EU come from a far and have high ping. They will never play melee with less than 70 body armor and 10 PS. That is why they are shooting.

What you are suggesting is similar to siege on open plains, most people dislike it.

[Leshma]

Damn Shokoschugi called me a leecher, guess he wanted to be friendly. Regardless, i called him a my old friend in russian