Author Topic: Nerf Ranged 2014  (Read 6146 times)

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Offline Paul

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Re: Nerf Ranged 2014
« Reply #30 on: January 06, 2014, 07:36:16 am »
+3
I think Kafein knows all this. It's just his duty as a lobbyist to make cav/shielder appear as weak as possible while blowing up ranged effectiveness to epic proportions in his tales. Like a lawyer defending a murderer with all his skill although he knows that he is guilty, he does it because it his job. 

Offline Kafein

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Re: Nerf Ranged 2014
« Reply #31 on: January 06, 2014, 12:34:18 pm »
+1
I think Kafein knows all this. It's just his duty as a lobbyist to make cav/shielder appear as weak as possible while blowing up ranged effectiveness to epic proportions in his tales. Like a lawyer defending a murderer with all his skill although he knows that he is guilty, he does it because it his job.

Way to ignore everything I say. What about I say you can't handle people that tell you your game is not flawless and therefore shouldn't be listened to?

I just don't make points about why ranged is fine get a shield lol and use tactics because other people already do it, and I feel fixing issues in favor of ranged would not improve the game as much as fixing issues that are right now giving them an advantage. Do I say ranged does too much damage ? No. Do I say their COF is too tight ? No. Do I say it is too difficult to kill a cornered archer or xbow  guy ? No. Somehow I'm the most biaised lobbyist yet I only argue very specific stuff about ranged classes and their "counters".

You sure you aren't downplaying the effectiveness of shields just a bit? I mean what gametype are we talking about here? On siege ranged can be annoying as hell, but any group of shielders will be laughing all the way to the flag as the ranged just hunt kills and lose multi. And that's for ranged defense, we know how useless they are in attack.

If shields counter range in that scenario, when do ranged guys die? Also the shielders won't laugh when suddenly they will have to defend themselves in melee around the flag while being shot at. Do shielders have any more protection against projectiles than other melee classes when in combat? Not really. Catching an arrow with an inactive shield is extremely rare, and interrupts you nonetheless.

For battle i find cav and shielders eat ranged alive, unless there are major slopes to negate cav but then the shielders are still effective - unless surrounded by kiting ranged. Well... i know no heroes want to hear this, but it doesnt matter what class you are or what class they are, typically if you get surrounded 1 vs many you will die (unless they all suck).

That's simply not true. If I try to kill two archers as shielder and they are not moronic I will systematically die. If I try to kill two 2h heroes, I have my chances, moronic enemies or not.


I certainly found my shielder gens far easier than any other (5 shield skill), and other than strat sieges i barely gave ranged any notice since they never really troubled me (I also became hugely inactive because i find shielder playstyle so boring, but that's just me and nothing to do with ranged). Cav can kill ranged in flat maps, shielders 1 on 1 are a match for any ranged unless they fall for a point-blank shot as they lower their shield, the ranged will never have as-good stats as the shielder in melee, if they win then it's directional blocking and skill. Ranged kiting is a shitty playstyle, i agree, but the way to counter it is the way to counter any class that just runs away and delays - cav, teamwork and ranged. If it is true that shields offer no defense against ranged, that is not something i have experienced.

Sure, a shield provides adequate defense against ranged as long as you are not getting crossfired. But when it comes to actually helping your team and eliminate ranged enemies, a shield is far from being enough.

I often hear it said that the issue with ranged is the number of them, not the individual stats, well we still have far fewer ranged than native, crpg is still a 2hand heroes dream compared to native, and if we're considering balance on the grounds that a single infantryman has no sure counter to fighting 3 ranged at once i really don't see the validity. There is no gameplay counter to fighting multiple of any class who team up on you, situations like that come down to 'skill', no small amount of luck, and the multiple opponents being idiots - this applies for ranged aswell. I'm sure you've killed plenty of ranged as an infantryman, we forget those occasions the moment we do it - we kill a ranged, move onto the next target or dodge more ranged, not even a passing thought - but of course the far more memorable occasions will be when they kill you and cause you to rage for the next few minutes as you spectate them hoping to see another melee come punish them. Memory is biased like that.

This is where you are incorrect. Fighting a melee 1v3 comes down to builds, equipment, skill and luck, but mostly skill. "Fighting" a 1v3 against archers (and even worse against xbows) comes down to luck, movement speed and armor, mostly luck. Yeah sure some ninja guys evade one or two arrows on occasion, but dodging "skill" doesn't go much further than that. I don't even need any special equipment to win a melee 1v3. Give me something that can block and does reasonable damage and I'll be happy.

You always have a decent k/d when i see you, far from being helpless i think, what you describe about having to hide from ranged and having no way to fight them seems far removed from the reality of your actions in EU1 and EU2, if you're not careful i'll sneak on with an alt and spectate you, taking sexy screens of you killing ranged :P It's easy to feed off each other's hype on forums and build it up until ranged sound like unbeatable gods supported by biased game mechanics, who can outrun every specialised melee class, ignore all shields (which are 'tiny' apparently, grab a bigger one!) and have unsurpassable skill in melee aswell. Logically we know that isn't the case, when we actually play the game and join EU1 or EU2 and start playing we see that isn't the case, but on forums suddenly shields are made of tissue paper and every single archer and xbower are as good as the best you've ever had the misfortune to fight, there are still very few *really good* ranged, they're just the memorable - and annoying - ones, and when we post on forums we imagine every ranged is as good as those annoying few, because memory is biased like that.

Actually, if I was really struggling with the game people would avoid addressing my points by telling me to L2P. Now they avoid addressing my points by telling me I'm a lobbyist instead. It seems there's always a good reason not to listen.

About shields specifically, the reason I have been again (this isn't new) complaining about shield coverage is because I have been using shields again in a vain attempt to make ranged characters quit EU2, and therefore found myself precisly in those situations I'm describing, like two shielders vs two archers, or getting shot through my shield. This is not theorycrafting. Those things are also the reason stopped trying to act as a ranged counter with equipment that obviously does not let you be that. The best use of shields in siege is in melee, pushing up ladders. When it comes to ranged, the most sensible thing to do is to keep hiding.

Offline Leshma

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Re: Nerf Ranged 2014
« Reply #32 on: January 06, 2014, 01:00:27 pm »
0
This is nerf xbows topic, right?

Well, dunno is archery supposed to be counter to xbows but as an archer I sure don't feel like one. Maybe it's the other way, who knows. I think that reload speed on xbows is too fast. There were attempts to make it longer but every time it was reverted after like a day or so. Just like that mirror bump mechanics horses had.

Has anyone ever compared Hunting Crossbow with Longbow? Reload, damage, accuracy? Just don't forget to take damage bonus from let's say 7 PD.

Offline Gurnisson

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Re: Nerf Ranged 2014
« Reply #33 on: January 06, 2014, 02:35:47 pm »
+2
Has anyone ever compared Hunting Crossbow with Longbow?

Yes, hunting xbow is trash while longbow is a great weapon.
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Offline bavvoz

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Re: Nerf Ranged 2014
« Reply #34 on: January 06, 2014, 03:42:19 pm »
0
Its a bit depending on the map. Sometimes melee shine, sometimes cav and sometimes ranged. Even if i wouldnt mind some nerf to xbows (i use it myself so no lobbying here) i would rather see pierce damage getting tuned down a bit.

Offline Kafein

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Re: Nerf Ranged 2014
« Reply #35 on: January 06, 2014, 05:49:17 pm »
0
It's a hard counter because ranged utterly fail at their objective in the server, and if they want to actually attempt to aid their team in that scenario (all their melee being dead) they have to jump down to flag and die (which they do if they move). The number of times i've seen Fenris do this to a ranged-heavy defense is unreal, a small squad of shielders get in, flag goes down, melee are outnumbered cos of ineffectual ranged. If ranged were so good against shielders i'd keep my multi against Kinngrimm 'n' crew more often :P -oh, and i frequently get passive blocks against ranged, cos i'm a lucky beast, if you arent so lucky it helps to keep your shield up, good spatial awareness lets you block ranged even whilst in melee.

(also a further nerf to range would make them even more useless on siege attack where they're already pretty much a wasted slot on your team, their usefulness is highly situational)

The power of ranged is dishing out damage without exposing themselves. It's true they aren't really powerful when it comes to winning a siege round on many EU maps, but it's entirely different if we look at battle.

In a melee 1v3 even with luck your only chance is for them not to be 3 good players (and i dont mean good duelists, it's a different skillset), you can only win if they teamhit, fall for obvious target switching, or they're too afraid that you'll switch so don't attack allowing you to block the few hits they attempt and fight basically 1 on 1. If everyone in the 3 expected the target switching, had spatial awareness and was suitably aggressive the 1 in the 1v3 would systematically die too. And hell, i've charged down archer nests of 3 or more with a board shield before, with a pitiful 3 athletics. When a group of archers kite and crossfire you they are operating exactly as a group of competent melee gankers do, a very different experience from fighting your typical uncoordinated random 3 archers (or meleers) of varying skill and level.

I don't agree. Even 3 topscorers can lose against one melee, it's just about making the right calls at the right moment, and people seldom play at 100% of their potential anyway. A 1v3 at range against ranged will make you very dead regardless of your or the opponents skill. Kiting and crossfiring is not comparable with melee ganking as the risk of teamhitting is basically absent as well as the danger of being attacked yourself when your target is chasing some other guy. It is my understanding that surviving ganks tends to be easier with more agi-oriented characters so our experiences probably differ.

Yes ranged die less often, cos they stay away from the melee, but they also get fewer kills, negligible score and valor, and frequently fail to make their mark on the battlefield or actively assist their team in it's goal - all the glory of a support class that is only effective in numbers or when used by the handful of very skilled ranged out there. The secret recipe for killing ranged is what it always has been since native, either get behind them or cav, throw, run at them with a shield, teamplay or hope you have more/better ranged on your team. A '3 ranged vs 1 melee' description is no grounds to base balance on, in a fair test and comparison what are the other 2 melee doing? Coming at them from the side or behind or shield-rushing one each, you might die but your efforts could mean all 3 ranged die from focussing on you alone. Also if it isn't 3 *infantry* no cav would be able to resist if they saw 3 archers shooting one shielder, they'd come for easy kills from behind vs the ranged, infantry would flank, throwers would throw. That's the reality on the servers unless you've ran off on your own or let your whole team die.

As a shielder or any 1hander i dont stand much chance against 3 competent (or incompetent) maulers at the top of a ladder either, it isn't a fair situation to petition balance on.

At least I can just try to access the castle some other way without those three maulers being able to hit me anywhere on the map. I can just wait to get support from people with longer weapons, because I know those guys are actually effective against maulers. At the very least they will make the maulers move and let me slip past, at which point I can deal with the maulers alone.


Archers and xbows are definitely low risk classes if played to their strengths (full ranged wpf, nomad/tatar/horn bow if archer, 0 slot sidearm for blocking, 24 or more agi). Your most dangerous enemy is going to be other archers and xbows, so it's only logical the archer and xbow population just keeps increasing.

Offline Tydeus

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Re: Nerf Ranged 2014
« Reply #36 on: January 06, 2014, 06:09:26 pm »
0
This is nerf xbows topic, right?

Well, dunno is archery supposed to be counter to xbows but as an archer I sure don't feel like one. Maybe it's the other way, who knows. I think that reload speed on xbows is too fast. There were attempts to make it longer but every time it was reverted after like a day or so. Just like that mirror bump mechanics horses had.

Has anyone ever compared Hunting Crossbow with Longbow? Reload, damage, accuracy? Just don't forget to take damage bonus from let's say 7 PD.
I recently borrowed a MW Hunting Crossbow, actually. If you're comparing them solely by their ranged capabilities, the Longbow is much, much better. If you're considering the actual effectiveness of all possible builds using either weapon, I'd say things are much more balanced than they'd initially seem.
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Offline Leshma

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Re: Nerf Ranged 2014
« Reply #37 on: January 06, 2014, 06:16:44 pm »
0
There's one thing that interests me. Does bolts break often as arrows? I know arrows used to break quite often, much more than bows.

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Re: Nerf Ranged 2014
« Reply #38 on: January 06, 2014, 08:00:32 pm »
0
bows and bolts dmg chance is same I think, but it's more noticable for archers, because most of them are using 2 quivers instead of 1 bag of bolts.
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Offline Rumblood

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Re: Nerf Ranged 2014
« Reply #39 on: January 06, 2014, 09:49:20 pm »
+1
Kafein, your posts are getting way too long to quote and respond, but here are some tidbits:

Ranged die from shielders when the shielders go get them or, you know, when the ranged on your team kills them while you protect them from melee.

Again, you are bringing up 1 vs 2 or 3 and complaining that you die.

No, you won't take on 2 non-moronic 2 handers and win, you will die.

I've said before (and again) that shields should be made more effective against solo ranged. Certainly shots to the knee or foot shouldn't be possible. Head shots are about elevation. But please, stop complaining about trying to kill more than 1 archer with your shield. You should not be able to take any 2 players solo given equal skill regardless of class.
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Offline Kafein

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Re: Nerf Ranged 2014
« Reply #40 on: January 07, 2014, 02:32:07 am »
+1
Kafein, your posts are getting way too long to quote and respond, but here are some tidbits:

Ranged die from shielders when the shielders go get them or, you know, when the ranged on your team kills them while you protect them from melee.

Again, you are bringing up 1 vs 2 or 3 and complaining that you die.

No, you won't take on 2 non-moronic 2 handers and win, you will die.

I've said before (and again) that shields should be made more effective against solo ranged. Certainly shots to the knee or foot shouldn't be possible. Head shots are about elevation. But please, stop complaining about trying to kill more than 1 archer with your shield. You should not be able to take any 2 players solo given equal skill regardless of class.

In that case it's obviously time to buff melee ganking. A lot.

But yeah I think I will try to stop writing books about this for now. This came up mainly because I grabbed my shield again, focusing on ranged kills and finding out again how miserable that playstyle really is. But don't worry I learned my lesson. Archers and xbows have plenty of very powerful counters so it's the fault of the players for not "dealing with it with use a teamwork lol and get shield tactics". Nobody ever actually plays those powerful counter classes in a way that actually acheives that, but that's because melee players are dumb and don't use teamwork and tactics, totally not because playing ranged counter get a shield use tactics lol will get them killed. So I'm just going to avoid ranged altogether, enjoying some cRPG between the moments I'm being forcefully removed from the game by exterior forces.

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Re: Nerf Ranged 2014
« Reply #41 on: January 07, 2014, 03:15:54 am »
+1
But yeah I think I will try to stop writing books about this for now. This came up mainly because I grabbed my shield again, focusing on ranged kills and finding out again how miserable that playstyle really is. But don't worry I learned my lesson. Archers and xbows have plenty of very powerful counters so it's the fault of the players for not "dealing with it with use a teamwork lol and get shield tactics". Nobody ever actually plays those powerful counter classes in a way that actually acheives that, but that's because melee players are dumb and don't use teamwork and tactics, totally not because playing ranged counter get a shield use tactics lol will get them killed. So I'm just going to avoid ranged altogether, enjoying some cRPG between the moments I'm being forcefully removed from the game by exterior forces.
That's because a public server and a competitive/strat battle server are completely different. You have to guide players in a public server, which is exactly why MotF is going to have a larger role in battle in the future(although we're not exactly trying to turn battle into CTF mode). In battle, the only thing that matters, is kills. Because of this, without any objective, anything that doesn't have the maneuverability of cavalry or ranged abilities, is mere fodder.

Quote from: jacko
...infantry has no role but to kill other infantry

Battle is simply flawed by design, there's no getting around that. It's my favorite game mode, but it's flawed nonetheless.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2014, 03:20:14 am by Tydeus »
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Offline Rumblood

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Re: Nerf Ranged 2014
« Reply #42 on: January 07, 2014, 05:29:22 am »
0
Let me take this one from your book Kafein. Yes, if you want to ignore the numerous buffs and changes I've suggested to the various classes involved over the past year, then sure, I'm telling you to just suck it up and die like a man. Just because your complaints themselves are exaggerated to the point of ludicrousness, doesn't mean that a different balance between melee and ranged shouldn't be achieved.
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Offline Kafein

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Re: Nerf Ranged 2014
« Reply #43 on: January 07, 2014, 01:09:41 pm »
+1
Let me take this one from your book Kafein. Yes, if you want to ignore the numerous buffs and changes I've suggested to the various classes involved over the past year, then sure, I'm telling you to just suck it up and die like a man. Just because your complaints themselves are exaggerated to the point of ludicrousness, doesn't mean that a different balance between melee and ranged shouldn't be achieved.

Don't take my last post personally. I think you made a couple of fair suggestions and I appreciate the fact that you are not just trying to argue the statu quo.

That's because a public server and a competitive/strat battle server are completely different. You have to guide players in a public server, which is exactly why MotF is going to have a larger role in battle in the future(although we're not exactly trying to turn battle into CTF mode). In battle, the only thing that matters, is kills. Because of this, without any objective, anything that doesn't have the maneuverability of cavalry or ranged abilities, is mere fodder.

Battle is simply flawed by design, there's no getting around that. It's my favorite game mode, but it's flawed nonetheless.

Well yeah. Assuming that melee classes are not supposed to counter ranged but rather win the round trying to avoid ranged and minimize their effects, then the only problem is battle mode. But I've been hearing "get a shield lol" too much lately.

Offline Tydeus

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Re: Nerf Ranged 2014
« Reply #44 on: January 07, 2014, 01:58:44 pm »
0
Don't take my last post personally. I think you made a couple of fair suggestions and I appreciate the fact that you are not just trying to argue the statu quo.

Well yeah. Assuming that melee classes are not supposed to counter ranged but rather win the round trying to avoid ranged and minimize their effects, then the only problem is battle mode. But I've been hearing "get a shield lol" too much lately.
Right. It wasn't targeted at you, at least not solely. I'm trying to change the conversation because the one you guys are having(in both of the anti-ranged threads atm) is pointless. We're not going to nerf ranged into the ground so that melee and cav becomes the only enjoyable play style. Ranged may get some nerfs, but it won't be anything major, and I don't think we're going to go back to when the longbow and rus bow were the easiest bows to use, while also having the most damage.

Instead, I'd like to hear what people think about having MotF(Master of the Field) spawning at the start of every round, at 6 minutes, or when 2/3 of a team has died. And for the sake of the conversation, assume balanced flag locations.
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