Author Topic: A general discussion on the issue of ranged  (Read 4813 times)

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Offline Kafein

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Re: A general discussion on the issue of ranged
« Reply #60 on: December 16, 2013, 06:55:24 pm »
0
At least agi shielders have a clear weakness to certain melee setups, unlike ranged right now. Also, by reducing shield weight blockstunning shields will be more frequent, therefore heavy weapons will be a stronger counter to shields than before.

Offline Jona

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Re: A general discussion on the issue of ranged
« Reply #61 on: December 16, 2013, 08:08:23 pm »
+2
Siege is best suited for STR builds. Strategus battles/siege as well. DTV is also designed for STR builds, because these invisible walls made sure you can't utilize high ATH. Rageball is dead. What is left is battle, and imho should be best suited for AGI builds.

Should be... but isn't. While battle definitely gives an agi build room to stretch his legs, cav bumps and ranged spam will decimate your health by the time you even reach enemy lines.

just have a proper team balance system that takes "class" into account.  Right now class isn't even taken into account as far as I know.  It just balances by banner and "skill" (if one side starts winning more rounds than the other team). 

^ This. This is what we need. Class balance should take precedence over banner balance so that you don't have an all-ranged clan destroying the poor other team, only problem is which the massive amount of hybrids coding something like this would be a massive undertaking. Granted, you could just group people by their weapon proficiencies, it is not always the best way to go about sorting people. Anyone can use an xbow, and where do you draw the line between a nearly 1 - 1 melee / ranged hybrid?

Only thing that I think should be done is to lower the amount of time you can "hold" a bow pulled back and still be accurate.  After 1 full second it should be very inaccurate.  I think that would help a lot with the ranged "problem".

Agreed. Granted, as of now bows do lose accuracy the longer they hold, it just isn't quite enough as of now. If you shorten the hold time, then it makes it easier to get into the rhythm and doge the arrows, and therefore the archer needs to anticipate where his target is going... thus the skill required to be an effective archer is raised. The only problem is that throwers and crossbows, which are in my opinion the 2 most annoying ranged classes, have no holding drawbacks at all, as far as i know. And this is not without reason, of course... in real life holding back the 60, 70, or 80+ lb draw weight on a bow and keeping your arm steady is nearly impossible. With an xbow or throwing weapon you need only hold up the weight of the weapon itself, like it were a modern day rifle. This is really advantageous since you can hold for eternity, and there is no indication for the poor lad on the receiving end, making it harder to dodge. Sure, throwing weapons may have slower missile speeds, but that doesn't help much when the infantry on the receiving end has to anticipate it in order to dodge, but simply can't. No matter your athletics, you can't sidestep a throwing weapon from a decent range without at least some anticipation. Even the slowest ones are too fast. It is for this reason that archers are by far the easiest to dodge for me as a shield-less infantry.

Also, what is in my opinion the absolute worst thing with all ranged is that there is no penalty for swiftly jerking your mouse to one side and firing... if your reticule was already pinpoint accurate, swiftly turning will leave it so. This isn't just unrealistic, but it is also the most frustrating tactic that all ranged employ. If it was changed such that the targeting reticule enlarged a little bit the more you move the mouse in the up/down or left/right directions, this would help solve many issues. xbows could no longer 180 no scope you, throwers would have a harder time kiting and jump-180-headshotting.

If the reticule enlarged for each movement, and only became pinpoint accurate when held steady, I think ranged would be much less of an issue.



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Offline San

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Re: A general discussion on the issue of ranged
« Reply #62 on: December 16, 2013, 09:22:31 pm »
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I write the silliest things in the dead of night. I'll get to reading the responses soon.

I like some of the suggestions for the shields, but crossbow penetration can't be removed instead? I feel like current shield durability is already in a good place, it's just that the knightly shields and elite cav dominate the other shields by having almost all of the good benefits for the lowest weight. Shield weight reduction is good and makes it a better tool for non-dedicated classes that aren't weighed down by an extra 8kg.

That seems like something hardcoded.

Ugh, all the good stuff that can be tweaked is hardcoded.

Offline Corsair831

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Re: A general discussion on the issue of ranged
« Reply #63 on: December 16, 2013, 09:38:12 pm »
-1
tbh i agree the best way to counter ranged is to reduce the weight of shields by ~~ 100%

and increase ranged forcefield
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Re: A general discussion on the issue of ranged
« Reply #64 on: December 16, 2013, 09:56:41 pm »
0
tbh i agree the best way to counter ranged is to reduce the weight of shields by ~~ 100%

and increase ranged forcefield

Tsk tsk.....
I've never played a server where people split up as much or as often as on EU1.  No wonder range is having a field day.

Offline Joker86

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Re: A general discussion on the issue of ranged
« Reply #65 on: December 16, 2013, 11:51:05 pm »
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tbh i agree the best way to counter ranged is to reduce the weight of shields by ~~ 100%

and increase ranged forcefield

This doesn't solve the problem, it's only a (not 100%) cure for the symptoms. Basically the solution is "We have too many archers. This means we should motivate the players to create too many shielders to counter this development, so that we have one half of shielders fighting the other half of archers."
Joker makes a very good point.
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Offline Admerius

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Re: A general discussion on the issue of ranged
« Reply #66 on: December 17, 2013, 12:05:25 am »
-1
A totally crazy idea that would be fun if it worked:

The server does a sum of all PD points that current population has and then reduces accuracy for all bows by one tenth...

So if there are 10 archers with an average of 5 PD each that is 50 PD total which equals -5 accuracy.


Now the serious(3+ days of thought) part of the post:

Reduce all arrow quiver sizes to 8 regardless of type and loom level
Reduce all bolt quiver sizes to 5 regardless of type and loom level

Adjust weight in balanced way, half the current weight should do fine.
Perhaps add permanent equipment chest at spawn for siege(maybe even DTV and battle)

IMO archery is fine as it is, the problems I see is more related to lack of a stamina system, no system to dodge properly and that all damage is constant(which is both good and bad)

I had to remind myself that lvl 30+ is a veteran ELITE warrior in skill, based on mount and blade. The skills also represent that on your character tab on the website. 6PD is equal to deformed skeleton, 100+ wpf is mastery of that weapon, 18/24 longbow builds should have pin point accuracy at those skill levels,
the only things that's really missing to balance it is...

  • Shields shouldn't require any "shield skill" at all to use
  • Dodge/crouch animations
  • Stamina system
  • Chance based Defelection system on armour on top of absorption/ressistance

Edit1: duh forgot to add the wall of text friendly reasoning why archery is ALMOST fine..
« Last Edit: December 17, 2013, 12:17:21 am by Admerius »

Offline Corsair831

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Re: A general discussion on the issue of ranged
« Reply #67 on: December 17, 2013, 01:20:25 am »
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This doesn't solve the problem, it's only a (not 100%) cure for the symptoms. Basically the solution is "We have too many archers. This means we should motivate the players to create too many shielders to counter this development, so that we have one half of shielders fighting the other half of archers."

ok, make it so if you've got a shield and the shield gets hit by an arrow, then you get healed

but if the arrow doesnt hit your shield but hits you when it's equipped, it's one shot kill
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Offline Joker86

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Re: A general discussion on the issue of ranged
« Reply #68 on: December 17, 2013, 09:19:09 am »
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ok, make it so if you've got a shield and the shield gets hit by an arrow, then you get healed

but if the arrow doesnt hit your shield but hits you when it's equipped, it's one shot kill

Now that's a creative approach, but still basing on the idea of simply buffing the counter which doesn't help much  :wink:
Joker makes a very good point.
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Offline Tydeus

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Re: A general discussion on the issue of ranged
« Reply #69 on: December 19, 2013, 01:28:07 am »
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A totally crazy idea that would be fun if it worked:

The server does a sum of all PD points that current population has and then reduces accuracy for all bows by one tenth...

So if there are 10 archers with an average of 5 PD each that is 50 PD total which equals -5 accuracy.

Stuff like that isn't very likely to happen. Regardless, with -5 accuracy, bows would feel like throwing weapons.
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Offline Grumbs

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Re: A general discussion on the issue of ranged
« Reply #70 on: December 19, 2013, 10:43:02 am »
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Stuff like that isn't very likely to happen. Regardless, with -5 accuracy, bows would feel like throwing weapons.

If making bows accurate creates problems by itself then the actual shooting mechanics are the culprit. Make projectiles travel slower, dip more but make them accurate. Make it so people have to aim for headshots and so they can't spam over and over etc. People should hit their target if they make a good shot. The problem is that making a good shot is nowhere near as indepth as other combat in the game and this is what makes it frustrating
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Offline Kafein

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Re: A general discussion on the issue of ranged
« Reply #71 on: December 19, 2013, 12:08:33 pm »
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Any good archer build is already pinpoint accurate. With my level 23 (!) archer alt, 5PD 155 wpf and stock tatar bow the crosshair stays "closed" (all three points are in the same place) for a little less than one second. It's really time to reduce missile speed, because right now it's just entirely too easy to hit moving target with this kind of projectile speed.

Offline Joker86

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Re: A general discussion on the issue of ranged
« Reply #72 on: December 19, 2013, 12:12:24 pm »
+1
If making bows accurate creates problems by itself then the actual shooting mechanics are the culprit. Make projectiles travel slower, dip more but make them accurate.

It's really time to reduce missile speed, because right now it's just entirely too easy to hit moving target with this kind of projectile speed.

This still falls under "balancing", since it's only tweaking values like missile speed or accuracy. The problem is of another kind, it's a gameplay problem. It has nothing to do with item balance and attacking mechanics (the process of aiming and shooting in the case of archers), and all the changes we went through in this department and the persisting problems with ranged combat and ranged overpopulation on the servers prove my point quite well, I think. All those nerfs didn't solve the problem at all.

The problems come from different directions. If you engage and attack, you are acting, and you feel like you are playing the game. If you attack anything which is NOT stationary or moving directly towards you, you are hunting it. Hunting is what archers and cavalry exceed in, and what infantry sucks at. And hunting is what battle mode is about. This is why infantry is complaining constantly, since all they do is react to the other classes, you feel passive, defensive and while running after somebody you don't really feel like playing the game, at least not the fun part of it.

But as I said, attacking stationary objects is not hunting, and this is what infantry is good at, hence I am advertising a pure conquest mode for I don't know how long now. That's the main source of the problems, and nothing which is even remotely connected to missile speed, accuracy or damage. Or ammo reserves or whatever.
Joker makes a very good point.
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Re: A general discussion on the issue of ranged
« Reply #73 on: December 19, 2013, 12:28:31 pm »
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I just know I'd feel a hell of a lot better if I knew the player had overcome some kind of challenge presented by the game that allowed me to think "Good shot!". Its not like that though. Its spamming shot after shot and something will hit eventually. Its centre of mass, leg, arm shots, hardly any projectile dip, they hit very fast and do good damage. If I played an FPS game I could find more player skill in shooting mechanics than in M&B.. When you have guys shooting people that can't even shoot back and you add to it the lack of depth in the shooting it creates a real resentment toward the actual class. Not the player though, I only ever blame the game. People play to win within the parameters set by the devs and if they can take a route that allows them to have some impact with minimal risk or effort they will do it. If one guy doesn't do it someone else will

If it were a real FPS game it would be OK. We could all try to shoot each other and the best player wins. In this its more a case of class vs class which creates the backlash

Conquest mode is not something I am interested in myself. I like battle and the freeform, nonlinear way the rounds play out (as long as the maps have different viable routes and tactical positions)
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Re: A general discussion on the issue of ranged
« Reply #74 on: December 19, 2013, 02:07:23 pm »
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I think the skill requirement is there for archery. You happen to notice only the hits, but many people forget about the multitude of projectiles missing them and hitting the ground or an obstacle. And don't you forget the body damage nerf, which requires archers to score headshots to deal better damage.

In general I think the relative easiness of archery is balanced by the relatively low lethality and survivability compared to cavalry or infantry ( which is in melee range, that is ) and the limited ammo, which means that after some time you can't deal damage any more.

Don't underestimate the effect of the game mode. How many complaints against certain classes come from siege players? The freeform and the non linear way the rounds play out is what makes infantry struggle so much. But of course I agree to you, I like freedom and change in gameplay as you do. That's why this master of the field change Tydeus mentioned doesn't really get me excited, since its simply not enough.
Joker makes a very good point.
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