Author Topic: A general discussion on the issue of ranged  (Read 5541 times)

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Offline Tydeus

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Re: A general discussion on the issue of ranged
« Reply #45 on: December 16, 2013, 03:48:54 pm »
+7
We really shouldn't be underestimating the flaws of the battle game mode. It's my favorite game mode, but it's massively flawed. Battle is absolutely amazing for large, competitive settings, unfortunately, that's not what na/eu 1 is. Battle is inherently flawed for any non-competitive, zero class limiting system. Not only for the reasons above, but also because of melee & horse ranged interactions.

So far, this is what we have specifically related to this topic, that's already been voted on and passed for the next patch:
MotF spawns immediately upon one team's living player count falling below 6. All time requirements for motf* get completely removed.
Shield armor increase for most shields(should help significantly increase effectiveness against ranged and to reduce xbow penetration)
shield weight reduction for most shields.

It's a short list, but we're actively trying to work on this without significantly changing things for ranged classes. We've talked about doing a lot more than just these two things, but as of yet, these are the only two that have been successfully passed a vote.

Edit: added * for clarification, battle will still maintain the same round time limit.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2013, 04:10:57 pm by Tydeus »
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Offline Strudog

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Re: A general discussion on the issue of ranged
« Reply #46 on: December 16, 2013, 03:53:31 pm »
0
We really shouldn't be underestimating the flaws of the battle game mode. It's my favorite game mode, but it's massively flawed. Battle is absolutely amazing for large, competitive settings, unfortunately, that's not what na/eu 1 is. Battle is inherently flawed for any non-competitive, zero class limiting system. Not only for the reasons above, but also because of melee & horse ranged interactions.

So far, this is what we have specifically related to this topic, that's already been voted on and passed for the next patch:
MotF spawns immediately upon one team's living player count falling below 6. All time requirements get completely removed.
Shield armor increase for most shields(should help significantly increase effectiveness against ranged and to reduce xbow penetration)
shield weight reduction for most shields.

It's a short list, but we're actively trying to work on this without significantly changing things for ranged classes. We've talked about doing a lot more than just these two things, but as of yet, these are the only two that have been successfully passed a vote.

I like all the points that have been stated here apart from the shield weight, a buff to agi whores again ( will it make it easier for crushthrough?), but i think you will find this wont go far enough, but its a good start.
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Offline Leshma

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Re: A general discussion on the issue of ranged
« Reply #47 on: December 16, 2013, 03:56:57 pm »
+1
Siege is best suited for STR builds. Strategus battles/siege as well. DTV is also designed for STR builds, because these invisible walls made sure you can't utilize high ATH. Rageball is dead. What is left is battle, and imho should be best suited for AGI builds.

Offline Kafein

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Re: A general discussion on the issue of ranged
« Reply #48 on: December 16, 2013, 04:14:22 pm »
0
Lighter shields could result in more frequent shield blockstun when hit by very heavy weapons and strong characters. I'm not saying this is particularly bad in the grand scheme of things, but should not be overlooked.

Offline musketer

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Re: A general discussion on the issue of ranged
« Reply #49 on: December 16, 2013, 04:23:32 pm »
0
Just decrease the amount of arrows per arrow bag and increase the upkeep price of these, problem fixed.

Offline Joker86

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Re: A general discussion on the issue of ranged
« Reply #50 on: December 16, 2013, 04:23:38 pm »
+1
i completely disagree with the conquest idea, its essentially siege with more flags, the uniqueness of battle is that you have one life to do as well as possible and thus making that game much more exciting, where as siege i tend to jump on for a map or 2 and find myself bored because there is no real challenge to siege apart from spawning and dying over and over again. Conquest would be no more different, i still don't think people would swap class because they don't get enough xp, people will play the class they want to play and find the most fun, this is why you find all these agi rondel my old friends running around because people are bored of the combat system in M&B and find new ways to make fun. This is why a lot of people have changed from melee to archer because they have done everything they can do over a space of a couple of years in melee, of course the free respec did not help. The only way to solve the issue is to bring in a proper class balancing system or to Nerf ranged.

The problem with unique spawns is that it is going to give an advantage to killer classes no matter what the gamemode is about. If you can just kill the enemy team and win that way, it's probably the easiest way to win.

Actually in my opinion having only one life is a basic and absolutely needed requirement to have the new conquest battle mode have any positive effect at all! Because if not, it would indeed turn into a siege mode, and the player cooperation, which is a part of the problem, would sink to almost 0.

I think many people play the class which is the most efficient in their eyes, and not neccessarily the most fun or the best "flair". So if we change the game in a way that "hit and run" is not the most effective behaviour any more (guess why cavalry and archers and especially horse archers are such a pain in the ass for infantry), things will change. As an archer you can spawn, run a few meters until you reach a good sniping position and then keep on pewpewing until the enemy team is dead, especially if you have a lot of archer friends.

Now if there is suddenly a flag over there in those ruins, and the enemy has it, you can pewpew as much as you want, the few remaining enemies in the ruins will make you lose the game. You used to be a good archer, and you made a lot of kills per map, significantly weakening the enemy team and granting you a slightly positive W/L-ratio. But now, all you can do is move around the enemy flag, keep your distance, try to make a few successfull shots, but suddenly you don't have so much of an impact on your game any more. You lose control, and from an active role (you could fight by shooting all the time while the infantry had to reach you first before entering the fight as well) you slide into a passive supporter, who can't do much if your infantry sucks.

I guess this could be motivation enough for people to try to influence things a bit more by playing infantry again. And the funny part is: you know you don't need to kill masses of enemies to win as infantry - it's enough to hold your ground, stay defensive or be offensive in the right moment, and you can win the rounds. There is no need any more to deal with those horse archers or agility crossbowers or whatever.

Oh and btw. ranged nerfs took place since the beginning of the game a few years ago, and where are we now? I guess you don't touch tings which are put under voltage again and again, do you? So why do people always ask for nerfs when they SEE that it doesn't help ANYTHING AT ALL?

Joker makes a very good point.
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Offline Macropus

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Re: A general discussion on the issue of ranged
« Reply #51 on: December 16, 2013, 04:27:06 pm »
+1
So far, this is what we have specifically related to this topic, that's already been voted on and passed for the next patch:
MotF spawns immediately upon one team's living player count falling below 6. All time requirements for motf* get completely removed.
Shield armor increase for most shields(should help significantly increase effectiveness against ranged and to reduce xbow penetration)
shield weight reduction for most shields.
It's very nice to hear. Although, maybe a good addition to that could be removing/lowering shield skill requirement for usage? It wouldn't be OP since without the skill any shield would break rather quickly, but still helping against ranged.

Offline IG_Saint

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Re: A general discussion on the issue of ranged
« Reply #52 on: December 16, 2013, 04:28:44 pm »
0
We really shouldn't be underestimating the flaws of the battle game mode. It's my favorite game mode, but it's massively flawed. Battle is absolutely amazing for large, competitive settings, unfortunately, that's not what na/eu 1 is. Battle is inherently flawed for any non-competitive, zero class limiting system. Not only for the reasons above, but also because of melee & horse ranged interactions

Just curious, but have you guys ever considered reviving the search and destroy game mode? I could see that helping solve some of the problems of public battles.

Offline CrazyCracka420

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Re: A general discussion on the issue of ranged
« Reply #53 on: December 16, 2013, 04:55:20 pm »
0
Only thing that I think should be done is to lower the amount of time you can "hold" a bow pulled back and still be accurate.  After 1 full second it should be very inaccurate.  I think that would help a lot with the ranged "problem".

Or just have a proper team balance system that takes "class" into account.  Right now class isn't even taken into account as far as I know.  It just balances by banner and "skill" (if one side starts winning more rounds than the other team). 

We really shouldn't be underestimating the flaws of the battle game mode. It's my favorite game mode, but it's massively flawed. Battle is absolutely amazing for large, competitive settings, unfortunately, that's not what na/eu 1 is. Battle is inherently flawed for any non-competitive, zero class limiting system. Not only for the reasons above, but also because of melee & horse ranged interactions.

So far, this is what we have specifically related to this topic, that's already been voted on and passed for the next patch:
MotF spawns immediately upon one team's living player count falling below 6. All time requirements for motf* get completely removed.
Shield armor increase for most shields(should help significantly increase effectiveness against ranged and to reduce xbow penetration)
shield weight reduction for most shields.

It's a short list, but we're actively trying to work on this without significantly changing things for ranged classes. We've talked about doing a lot more than just these two things, but as of yet, these are the only two that have been successfully passed a vote.

Edit: added * for clarification, battle will still maintain the same round time limit.

I like these suggested changes.  MotF spawning earlier should give infantry some sort of "objective" without having to charge entrenched archer positions, or wait 3 minutes for flags to spawn.

I've suggested (and others have) this very thing in the past.  Spawning MotF earlier in the round will help infantry shine more.  Some people still bitched that it would just give ranged a more concentrated area to target infantry, but I disagree.  As a shielder, it's very easy to hold a position versus ranged.  The main problem lies when you have to fight archers on the territory they choose to fight on.  This will negate that advantage, and put ranged back into a "support" class that no longer gets to dictate where battles are fought.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2013, 04:58:59 pm by CrazyCracka420 »
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Offline Tydeus

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Re: A general discussion on the issue of ranged
« Reply #54 on: December 16, 2013, 04:58:36 pm »
0
Only thing that I think should be done is to lower the amount of time you can "hold" a bow pulled back and still be accurate.  After 1 full second it should be very inaccurate.  I think that would help a lot with the ranged "problem".
That seems like something hardcoded.
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Offline Corsair831

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Re: A general discussion on the issue of ranged
« Reply #55 on: December 16, 2013, 05:16:56 pm »
0
it's not that i'm not going to read it, but cba reading 18 walls of text to catch up ... if ur gonna write like 10 million words at least give little titles outside and put the rest in a spoiler

it's just plain hard to read a wall of text :3
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Offline Kafein

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Re: A general discussion on the issue of ranged
« Reply #56 on: December 16, 2013, 05:56:35 pm »
0
it's not that i'm not going to read it, but cba reading 18 walls of text to catch up ... if ur gonna write like 10 million words at least give little titles outside and put the rest in a spoiler

it's just plain hard to read a wall of text :3

It's not hard unless you did not learn to read properly. It may take some time, sure.

Offline Joker86

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Re: A general discussion on the issue of ranged
« Reply #57 on: December 16, 2013, 06:12:05 pm »
+1
it's not that i'm not going to read it, but cba reading 18 walls of text to catch up ... if ur gonna write like 10 million words at least give little titles outside and put the rest in a spoiler

it's just plain hard to read a wall of text :3

Depends on the intellectual skill of the reader.  :P

No, honestly, I know that in relation to the average forum post those longer posts seems like a wall of text, but it's usually about the size of one or two ordinary text paragraphs. It may be that it takes 15 minutes to read into the topic if you check it after a day, but it's nothing you can't ask for or which exceeds the mental capabilities of most people. In the end it's a complicated matter, and usually if someone writes something long he probably has to say something, usually it's good (I rarely see turds writing "walls of text"), and it might influence your opinion.
Joker makes a very good point.
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Re: A general discussion on the issue of ranged
« Reply #58 on: December 16, 2013, 06:28:32 pm »
0
We really shouldn't be underestimating the flaws of the battle game mode. It's my favorite game mode, but it's massively flawed. Battle is absolutely amazing for large, competitive settings, unfortunately, that's not what na/eu 1 is. Battle is inherently flawed for any non-competitive, zero class limiting system. Not only for the reasons above, but also because of melee & horse ranged interactions.

So far, this is what we have specifically related to this topic, that's already been voted on and passed for the next patch:
MotF spawns immediately upon one team's living player count falling below 6. All time requirements for motf* get completely removed.
Shield armor increase for most shields(should help significantly increase effectiveness against ranged and to reduce xbow penetration)
shield weight reduction for most shields.

It's a short list, but we're actively trying to work on this without significantly changing things for ranged classes. We've talked about doing a lot more than just these two things, but as of yet, these are the only two that have been successfully passed a vote.

Edit: added * for clarification, battle will still maintain the same round time limit.

The shield weight reduction is just plain silly imho, so you leave the the issue up to shielders to clean up the ranged filth.. yet they get a massive buff, its not like 1h/shield is a shitty class to begin with.
Its not gonna fix anything.

You should just remove the pierce tag on the bodkin arrows, lower the weight on quivers and be done with it.
There is a reason this game went from fun to a ranged shit fest, its just to fuckin easy to deal massive dmg as an archer in a rapid amount of time, and pad your kdr.

Ranged was fine before you gave them depleted uranium arrow tips...
I've never played a server where people split up as much or as often as on EU1.  No wonder range is having a field day.

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Re: A general discussion on the issue of ranged
« Reply #59 on: December 16, 2013, 06:44:35 pm »
0
We really shouldn't be underestimating the flaws of the battle game mode. It's my favorite game mode, but it's massively flawed. Battle is absolutely amazing for large, competitive settings, unfortunately, that's not what na/eu 1 is. Battle is inherently flawed for any non-competitive, zero class limiting system. Not only for the reasons above, but also because of melee & horse ranged interactions.

So far, this is what we have specifically related to this topic, that's already been voted on and passed for the next patch:
MotF spawns immediately upon one team's living player count falling below 6. All time requirements for motf* get completely removed.
Shield armor increase for most shields(should help significantly increase effectiveness against ranged and to reduce xbow penetration)
shield weight reduction for most shields.

It's a short list, but we're actively trying to work on this without significantly changing things for ranged classes. We've talked about doing a lot more than just these two things, but as of yet, these are the only two that have been successfully passed a vote.

Edit: added * for clarification, battle will still maintain the same round time limit.


tbh sounds awfull and gives no incentive to play shieldless melee but pushes players towards agi shielders and it won't solve anything.
And now he can't play because of "common sense" and he doesn't understand how this common sense works
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