All X-Bows Should be Two Slots

[Tydeus]

Considering WPF mechanics and X-Bows inherently higher accuracy than other ranged types, as well as damage, I fail to see how a Wielding a crossbow, a stack of bolts, a poleaxe, all while in plate, is any better than the previous system.  Even if, with the new system, you're forced to use a crossbow instead of a heavy or an arbalest, it doesn't seem like anything has changed. Crossbows have the least investment needed out of all ranged and they have some of the best possible ranged damage. I think because of their low investment, which I'm not suggesting needs to be changed, they should all be two slots to help balance them with bows and throwing.

Currently battle servers have reverted to how they were before the most recent patches, that is, with all melee either bringing a pike or a crossbow along with their heavy two-handed/polearm weapons. The first minute or two of the battle is a camp fest where all the ranged just take pot shots at each other. Crossbows during this time become every bit as effective as bows are, but then late in the round, when the ranged are forced to enter melee, the crossbow guys pull out poleaxes and claymores while the bows have to pull out one handers. Not to mention Crossbowmen are much freer to use heavy armor than bowmen are.

Sure, lower tier bows like the Strongbow and Khergit are 1 slot so if they bring one stack of arrows they can do the same thing. The difference though, is that bows require far more of an investment to be good with. Spending skill points is mandatory for bows while not for crossbows. 120 wpf minimum(and this is being generous) is mandatory for bows while crossbows are perfectly fine at 80 wpf (And I know a couple of people who only get 50 wpf in crossbows). There is also a significant STR/PD difficulty difference(that I wouldn't suggest changing) between the two ranged types. You only need 10 str for the highest tier 1 slot xbow, but 12/15 for the 2nd highest/highest 1 slot bows.

I could go on, but I'm interested in seeing what other people think as well.

[Peasant_Woman]

I agree that something should be done to stop crossbowmen taking a 2hander or polearm like bowmen. What I suggest is that instead of all crossbows being 2 slot (which would kill off crossbow + shield hybrids) that all 2 handers/polearms should be 3 slots. When you think about it the only things a dedicated 2hander/polearm user might use an extra slot for are a shield to absorb arrows or taking a couple of throwing weapons (crossbow should not be a common 2hander/poleusers sidearm) so I think that 3 slots could work.

Ideally I think archers should at least be able to use a 2hander/polearm if they use lower tier bows, but crossbowmen should not as all crossbows are good but best for different situations while with bows there is a progression where the lower tier bows are clearly overall worse than the top 3. Possibly if you put a point into Powerdraw 2handers/polearms become 2 slots for you?
Perhaps all crossbows should be at least 12 str with the heavy and arbalest at 15?

P.S - If we really must have a 1 slot crossbow, let it be the hunting xbow and lower its damage to around longbow+barbed arrows region of damage.

[Tzar]

Give up paul wont nerf xbows ever its pointless to try and make sense...

I all rdy gave up

[Geon]

+1 to this.

[Rumblood]

Increase to 2 slots, and then increase the number of bolts in an individual stack so that a pure xbow character isn't gimped as well. The wpf requirements should be adjusted so that 50 wpf is 75% inaccurate, 100 wpf is 50% inaccurate, 125 wpf is 25% inaccurate, and 150 wpf is 10% inaccurate. A dev would have to calculate the CoF reticule to figure out where those numbers reside as far as how wide it should be. Also would need to determine at what range to apply those numbers. Probably 25-50 yards.

[Tydeus]

Increase to 2 slots, and then increase the number of bolts in an individual stack so that a pure xbow character isn't gimped as well.

This is really all I think needs changed. Set the bolts per stack back to what it was before the hybrid changes and I think it'd be fine. It feels like the nerf to hybrids didn't actually happen for crossbowmen.

[MadJackMcMad]

Why use a crossbow instead of an Arbalest?  The two slot system has already made the Heavy Crossbow obsolete as it shares 2 slots with it's better counterpart.

[Gurnisson]

Crossbows have a special functionality because of their slow rate of fire,  and you're very vulnerable to archers because of it. I feel that the crossbowmen who want to go crossbow + bolts + one-hander + shield should be able to do so, at least up to the mid-tier crossbow, which is how it's now. You can get ranged protection as a crossbowman if you sacrifise damage. Seems fair to me.

[Vanular]

Crossbows have a special functionality because of their slow rate of fire,  and you're very vulnerable to archers because of it. I feel that the crossbowmen who want to go crossbow + bolts + one-hander + shield should be able to do so, at least up to the mid-tier crossbow, which is how it's now. You can get ranged protection as a crossbowman if you sacrifise damage. Seems fair to me.

Then they can trash the shield, just like a lot of cavalry are forced to do with the new 2spot system, if they want the tiniest chance of being able to fight when thrown off horse.

Crossbows might be slow, but they deal more damage. That's already weighted out.

[Gurnisson]

You can get ranged protection as a crossbowman horseman if you sacrifise damage. Seems fair to me.

Quarter Staff, Military Fork. Sacrifise damage, get a shield. It's the same.

[Tavuk_Bey]

-1 this is lame

[Rhaelys]

I agree that something should be done to stop crossbowmen taking a 2hander or polearm like bowmen. What I suggest is that instead of all crossbows being 2 slot (which would kill off crossbow + shield hybrids) that all 2 handers/polearms should be 3 slots. When you think about it the only things a dedicated 2hander/polearm user might use an extra slot for are a shield to absorb arrows or taking a couple of throwing weapons (crossbow should not be a common 2hander/poleusers sidearm) so I think that 3 slots could work.

Ideally I think archers should at least be able to use a 2hander/polearm if they use lower tier bows, but crossbowmen should not as all crossbows are good but best for different situations while with bows there is a progression where the lower tier bows are clearly overall worse than the top 3. Possibly if you put a point into Powerdraw 2handers/polearms become 2 slots for you?
Perhaps all crossbows should be at least 12 str with the heavy and arbalest at 15?

P.S - If we really must have a 1 slot crossbow, let it be the hunting xbow and lower its damage to around longbow+barbed arrows region of damage.

Think carefully about this. While 3 slot 2H/Polearms would personally not affect me (I use a polearm with a shield on my back for ranged protection) it would detrimentally affect builds like cavalry, who already barely make the 4 slot limit with a lance (2 slots), a one-handed weapon (1 slot), and a shield (1 slot), or a lance and a 2h/polearm, already abandoning the shield.

[Jacko]

All these worthless hybrids, burn em!

I see why you'd wanna keep 1h/shield crossbow hybrid, it's a fairly good "nub" combo, but the result is still tincans with decent range and 2h/pole, which is rather boring. Being a dedicated crossbowman, this suggested 2 slot change wouldn't affect me at all, but but I would still support it.

To be honest, you only need "range protection" when your on an open field, and then your biggest concern is cavalry anyway *shrugs*.

[Tydeus]

Why use a crossbow instead of an Arbalest?  The two slot system has already made the Heavy Crossbow obsolete as it shares 2 slots with it's better counterpart.

I saw just as many Crossbows before the patch as I did Heavy/Sniper crossbows. This isn't about just decreasing the number of ranged players. This, thanks to an archer bringing this to my attention, was founded with balance in mind. Arbalest's rate of fire is much slower than a Crossbow's rate of fire, which is specifically why many people took this crossbow before the patch, not to mention reduced upkeep cost. That's like asking "Why take the Strongbow/Warbow when you can use the Longbow" or the Longsword instead of a Greatsword. There are other important factors aside from just damage.

Crossbowmen aren't any bit more vulnerable than Two-Handers/Polearm users. I spent a few gens as a Crossbowman myself, with a Masterwork Heavy Crossbow. You have the best of both worlds with crossbows and a heavy melee weapon. I also had a Masterwork Warbow until recently. With crossbowmen, even though they're vulnerable while reloading, they're on completely even footing with an archer if they have a wall to reload behind.

Specifically though, this thread is about balancing hybrid crossbowmen with hybrid archers.

[Gurnisson]

All these worthless hybrids, burn em!

I see why you'd wanna keep 1h/shield crossbow hybrid, it's a fairly good "nub" combo, but the result is still tincans with decent range and 2h/pole, which is rather boring. Being a dedicated crossbowman, this suggested 2 slot change wouldn't affect me at all, but but I would still support it.

To be honest, you only need "range protection" when your on an open field, and then your biggest concern is cavalry anyway *shrugs*.

You sum ut up pretty well. I'm not a fan of sidearmer neither. I don't need one-slots crossbows myself, and cavalry are indeed our nemesis on open fields. Still, I think that crossbow + bolts + one-hander + shield should be a viable option. That's what a crossbowman is in my opinion, even though I don't want to be it myself.