Author Topic: All X-Bows Should be Two Slots  (Read 15708 times)

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Offline Gorath

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Re: All X-Bows Should be Two Slots
« Reply #60 on: May 20, 2011, 08:28:18 am »
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First of all, I think you should play a few times with karma. He uses about 150 wpf in crossbows, there's no room to be a hybrid with that. Second, I didn't say anything about not being able to hybrid altogether. What I have been stating, is that Crossbows should be hybrids with one slot weapons. This means no huge ass, high tier polearms or Two-Handed weapons. I've posted more than once in this thread so I think you should go back and re-read everything. Furthermore I've stated that I proposed making crossbows 2 slots as an alternative to a wpf/pd requirement as I know several people think crossbows are what they are because they have a low requirement, but that I would also agree with a wpf/pd requirement being imposed.

I feel like I should also remind people that this is the Balance Discussion thread, not the Suggestion Thread.

It's not the 2h/pole weapons I was referring to being what destroys the x-bow, but the inability to use a 1h/shield/xbow character.  In a ranged battle vs the machine gun nature of archers/throwers, the ability to fire your one shot and then swap to shield in order to reach cover to reload is it's advantage.  Granted, most often you see people just use it with some pike length 2h'd sword or Spam-hafted-blade or whatever, but meh.

I do play with karma, ALOT.  I'm in TS with him right now.   :P

WPF requirement is the best idea (not PD as that doesn't make any sense whatsoever) vs increasing the slot requirements.
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Offline Tzar

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Re: All X-Bows Should be Two Slots
« Reply #61 on: May 20, 2011, 12:33:40 pm »
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Put wpf req along with PD on the xbow and finish this endless long debate for god sake......

If archers can do it xbowmen can too
I've never played a server where people split up as much or as often as on EU1.  No wonder range is having a field day.

Offline Gorath

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Re: All X-Bows Should be Two Slots
« Reply #62 on: May 20, 2011, 04:55:28 pm »
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Put wpf req along with PD on the xbow and finish this endless long debate for god sake......

If archers can do it xbowmen can too

With a PD requirement why oh why would you ever take an x-bow rather than a bow?
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Offline Tydeus

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Re: All X-Bows Should be Two Slots
« Reply #63 on: May 20, 2011, 05:28:19 pm »
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With a PD requirement why oh why would you ever take an x-bow rather than a bow?
That's the argument I've been expecting to see, it's also one I agree with (mostly). Whether it's a wpf requirement or a PD requirement, when hybriding, it still comes down to skill points. Weapon Master vs Power Draw. Though personally I'd be more for the WPF requirement being imposed upon crossbows.
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Offline Damug

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Re: All X-Bows Should be Two Slots
« Reply #64 on: May 20, 2011, 06:14:04 pm »
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What I have been stating, is that Crossbows should be hybrids with one slot weapons. This means no huge ass, high tier polearms or Two-Handed weapons. I've posted more than once in this thread so I think you should go back and re-read everything.

Make the better 2h weapons and polearms 3 slots then. that way you can still have your crossbow, a stack of bolts, a 1h and a shield.

Offline Tydeus

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Re: All X-Bows Should be Two Slots
« Reply #65 on: May 20, 2011, 07:08:21 pm »
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Make the better 2h weapons and polearms 3 slots then. that way you can still have your crossbow, a stack of bolts, a 1h and a shield.
Because this nerfs Two-Handers and Polearms drastically. All the anti-cavalry weapons you see people use now, it would keep 90% of the current users, from using them. It's a huge buff to cav. It nerfs throwing hybrids as well. Not just high tier, but specifically low/mid tier throwing would get hit the hardest. As Rhaelys stated earlier in the thread, it's already hard enough for cav to manage with their slot requirements. This is just not at all possible, it nerfs everything except for pure sword and boards and Archers.
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Offline Tzar

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Re: All X-Bows Should be Two Slots
« Reply #66 on: May 20, 2011, 07:12:40 pm »
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FFs just make the xbow take wpf/pd and give it a rest.....

The 2slot system was like fixing the problem with a slegdehammer  :?
I've never played a server where people split up as much or as often as on EU1.  No wonder range is having a field day.

Offline Rhaelys

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Re: All X-Bows Should be Two Slots
« Reply #67 on: May 20, 2011, 08:24:25 pm »
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Because this nerfs Two-Handers and Polearms drastically. All the anti-cavalry weapons you see people use now, it would keep 90% of the current users, from using them. It's a huge buff to cav. It nerfs throwing hybrids as well. Not just high tier, but specifically low/mid tier throwing would get hit the hardest. As Rhaelys stated earlier in the thread, it's already hard enough for cav to manage with their slot requirements. This is just not at all possible, it nerfs everything except for pure sword and boards and Archers.

Exactly. As much as I love to hate on cav, imposing even more burdensome slot requirements on 2Hs and polearms will make cav pretty much one trick ponies (Basically just a lance and a one-handed weapon, or just a lance and a shield, which is even more pathetic). This is a janky work-around solution to addressing crossbows.

Personally, I am content with the state of crossbows. Sure, you can still kill people using a crossbow with 1 WPF in it, but isn't that model fairly sensible anyway? Even you or I could use and kill someone with a crossbow, provided we had enough strength to draw back the string. It's basically just aiming in a general direction and firing. Sure, we won't be deadly accurate, but at close ranges how hard is it to hit a fairly large target?

And crossbows are not in the same state as they were last year, where everyone who had two free slots carried around a sniper crossbow and steel bolts with 1 WPF because there were literally no penalties to doing so. We have upkeep now, so there's an actual cost to taking a crossbow sidearm at 1 WPF; as well, a random person with a normal crossbow and steel bolts has the capability for ranged, but he is not going to rain bolts of death upon his enemies with deadly precision and killing power. See archers with longbows for that, however.

Regardless, any change to crossbows should be through WPF requirements or skill requirements. Messing with the slot system on 2Hs and polearms will just destroy the balance that has been slowly established over the past few months.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2011, 08:27:26 pm by Rhaelys »
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Offline Patricia

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Re: All X-Bows Should be Two Slots
« Reply #68 on: May 20, 2011, 09:14:29 pm »
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Why are you even mentionning upkeep Rhaelys! It's useless nowadays,  it doesn't prevent anyone from using anything anymore, everyone has like one million gold stashed up, upkeep is the LEAST of anyone's worry right now.

Offline Rhaelys

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Re: All X-Bows Should be Two Slots
« Reply #69 on: May 20, 2011, 11:34:36 pm »
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Why are you even mentionning upkeep Rhaelys! It's useless nowadays,  it doesn't prevent anyone from using anything anymore, everyone has like one million gold stashed up, upkeep is the LEAST of anyone's worry right now.

It's worth mentioning even if some players no longer have to worry about it; upkeep still affects people without large reserves of gold.
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Offline Gorath

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Re: All X-Bows Should be Two Slots
« Reply #70 on: May 21, 2011, 05:41:47 am »
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Why are you even mentionning upkeep Rhaelys! It's useless nowadays,  it doesn't prevent anyone from using anything anymore, everyone has like one million gold stashed up, upkeep is the LEAST of anyone's worry right now.

I fucking wish!  I hover around 30k gold at any given point in time because I keep buying shit when I get in excess of that.  I also don't just run around in rags all the time either.  Not everyone is Kesh with a dragon's horde of gold hidden away you know.

That's the argument I've been expecting to see, it's also one I agree with (mostly). Whether it's a wpf requirement or a PD requirement, when hybriding, it still comes down to skill points. Weapon Master vs Power Draw. Though personally I'd be more for the WPF requirement being imposed upon crossbows.

You and I are in agreement here.  I think a WPF requirement fixes the main (and really only issue with x-bows).  No more freebie 1wpf users.  Pick, either put all your wpf from your str build into x-bow to use it and have your melee weapon at 1 wpf, OR up your WM in order to properly use both.  I've NEVER made a character that uses an x-bow with 1 wpf.  100 minimum and more often than not at least a 130 point investment which I think is totally reasonable.
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Re: All X-Bows Should be Two Slots
« Reply #71 on: May 21, 2011, 04:46:20 pm »
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Lol if crossbows get wpf requirement it kills my historic masterplan for Strategus. Recruit everyone possible, making sure you have as many people as you can on your team, and anyone carrying just a melee weapon gets a free crossbow, and bolts if they have a free slot. Then we line them up and spam the other team until they get close. It would have been fairly historically accurate... :mrgreen:
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Re: All X-Bows Should be Two Slots
« Reply #72 on: May 21, 2011, 07:42:16 pm »
+1


1)  x-bows HAVE to be hybrids.  They cannot be a primary class due to the severe shortcomings of the x-bow (standing stock ass still to reload for 10 seconds, inability to properly kite)
...
First of all, I think you should play a few times with karma. He uses about 150 wpf in crossbows, there's no room to be a hybrid with that...
...

This is the intrinsic quality that crossbows have that separate them from archers: they will see either see melee combat or they will be camping a roof. The lack of mobility means that if you are a mainly melee character using one you are keeping yourself from using your primary skillset (and thus performing far more poorly as far as your team's welfare is concerned) or else you hardly get to use the crossbow anyway. You camp, you're not fighting; you fight, you're not shooting. There's almost no room for the odd potshot with a crossbow.

This also means that for a dedicated crossbowman you will most likely see melee combat more unavoidably than an archer does, as oftentimes there is no "second shot" (or third, or fourth...) regardless of any theoretical choke point. In Karma's case, specifically, he has to keep up with his ability in melee fighting or else find himself at a loss anytime his shot doesn't put someone  who gets close to him down. He may not have much proficiency in his melee weapon, but a round when he doesn't use it is the outside chance.

In the case of the lower level crossbows, their weak projectile speed (or "bullet drop", if you will, which makes the effective range a lot shorter in addition to altering the aim) coupled with their subpar damage-to-frequency-of-shots ratio makes them somewhat feeble in terms of actual efficacy, regardless of who is using them and with how little investment.

I will say, however, that anything resembling the situation under the old experience system, where everyone had no reason not to carry a crossbow, and rounds would never properly get started for melee characters due to the sheer amount of thingies flying through the air is not only frightening but could also be viewed as regression as far as the state of the mod is concerned. On the bright side, crossbows have had their damage significantly reduced since then, and bolts are penetrating shields faaaaar less often, so ubiquity aside, they're not nearly as randomly deadly.

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Offline Tzar

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Re: All X-Bows Should be Two Slots
« Reply #73 on: May 22, 2011, 01:17:30 am »
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First of all, I think you should play a few times with karma. He uses about 150 wpf in crossbows, there's no room to be a hybrid with that...
...


This is the intrinsic quality that crossbows have that separate them from archers: they will see either see melee combat or they will be camping a roof. The lack of mobility means that if you are a mainly melee character using one you are keeping yourself from using your primary skillset (and thus performing far more poorly as far as your team's welfare is concerned) or else you hardly get to use the crossbow anyway. You camp, you're not fighting; you fight, you're not shooting. There's almost no room for the odd potshot with a crossbow.

This also means that for a dedicated crossbowman you will most likely see melee combat more unavoidably than an archer does, as oftentimes there is no "second shot" (or third, or fourth...) regardless of any theoretical choke point. In Karma's case, specifically, he has to keep up with his ability in melee fighting or else find himself at a loss anytime his shot doesn't put someone  who gets close to him down. He may not have much proficiency in his melee weapon, but a round when he doesn't use it is the outside chance.

In the case of the lower level crossbows, their weak projectile speed (or "bullet drop", if you will, which makes the effective range a lot shorter in addition to altering the aim) coupled with their subpar damage-to-frequency-of-shots ratio makes them somewhat feeble in terms of actual efficacy, regardless of who is using them and with how little investment.

I will say, however, that anything resembling the situation under the old experience system, where everyone had no reason not to carry a crossbow, and rounds would never properly get started for melee characters due to the sheer amount of thingies flying through the air is not only frightening but could also be viewed as regression as far as the state of the mod is concerned. On the bright side, crossbows have had their damage significantly reduced since then, and bolts are penetrating shields faaaaar less often, so ubiquity aside, they're not nearly as randomly deadly.

(click to show/hide)

Good arguments but i still don't see why the xbow shouldn't take wpf or pd like its friends throwing and archery  :?
I've never played a server where people split up as much or as often as on EU1.  No wonder range is having a field day.

Offline ArchonAlarion

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Re: All X-Bows Should be Two Slots
« Reply #74 on: May 22, 2011, 03:00:45 am »
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IRL, crossbows require less exertion and training to use, than bows. Longbowmen were so strong that their left arms developed bone spurs, but a relative weakling could use a crossbow. Because they are mechanically drawn, the strength of the user does not effect the speed or power of the bolt. Aiming would require some training, but less than a bow where fatigue worsens aim when holding the drawn bow (as seen in the game).

Crossbows niche should be a ranged weapon that does not have skill requisites to use. They are slow to reload, and their gold expense should balance any stat-based advantage they have over bows.

In an ideal Crpg, I'd imagine dedicated crossbowmen as a sniper class. They would rely more on gold than xp (Think italian mercenary cliche). Peasant levies would enjoy sacrificing some armor/melee wpn gold for a pricey crossbow instead because of the low requirements to use. Wealthy melee infantry with some item spots to spare might take a crossbow to a siege. Basically, the way they were used irl, making an intriguing simulation of medieval warfare rather than another boring rock-paper-dildo.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2011, 03:03:53 am by ArchonAlarion »