All X-Bows Should be Two Slots

[Tydeus]

They'll just pick up the light x-bow and continue.  And then the hunting x-bow and continue.  Just like people are now throw spamming more daggers and wardarts instead of lances/axes/jarids.  Archers are running like douches instead of melee'ing, etc.

The problem lies in the players, not the mechanics.  It's a mindset problem.

*I tried to mention this before the slot change happened.  People will just adapt to whatever the newest "best" ranged spam weapon they have available after the patch.  This is all the more reason to have a melee/cav only server or two for everyone.  Or we just get it over with and remove ranged altogether.*

Which is why all Crossbows should be 2 slots. I'm fine with archery and throwing being a hybrid for Two-Handers/Polearms, because you have to spend so many points, you're going to be hurting your build in multiple places because of their vastly higher requirements. You can still use throwing with little investment, but at the very least, they have a significantly shorter range than crossbows.

[Gorath]

Which is why all Crossbows should be 2 slots. I'm fine with archery and throwing being a hybrid for Two-Handers/Polearms, because you have to spend so many points, you're going to be hurting your build in multiple places because of their vastly higher requirements. You can still use throwing with little investment, but at the very least, they have a significantly shorter range than crossbows.

You understand that out of the 3 ranged types, x-bow/archer/thrower, that x-bow's are absolute shit as a "dedicated" build right?  Slow rate of fire, have to stand still to reload, damage range capped at expense, etc.

Again, might as well quit beating around the bush and just get rid of them altogether at this rate really.

[Jacko]

Yeah *whistle whistle*

Dedicated xbow, totally worthless. Nothing to see here, move along. *shifty eyes*

[MadJackMcMad]

This slot business serves to kill genuine crossbowmen as easily as hybrids.  It's like swatting a fly with a grenade.

The simplest solution is to restrict crossbows not by strength but by proficiency.

150 to use an Arbalest
140 Heavy Crossbow
125 Crossbow
75 Light Crossbow
1 Hunting Crossbow.

The higher values may seem heavy handed, but they are unreachable to 'hybrids' yet easily surpassed by genuine crossbowmen.  I'd also balance these values as they were in native, in that, accuracy is scaled downwards as power increases.  In order to preserve accuracy you must invest in points.  180 to achieve excellent accuracy in an arbalest, 165 for the HCrossbow, and 150 for the crossbow.

To be clear. If you have 75 crossbow and attempt to use a light crossbow, the accuracy and speed will be very low.

[Native_ATS]

You understand that out of the 3 ranged types, x-bow/archer/thrower, that x-bow's are absolute shit as a "dedicated" build right?  Slow rate of fire, have to stand still to reload, damage range capped at expense, etc.

Again, might as well quit beating around the bush and just get rid of them altogether at this rate really.

nope, just nerff xbows and life is better.
unfair weapon, free range for no trade off, maybe make them use skill points to weild, like 3-4 skill points for sniper?

[Shablagoo]

nope, just nerff xbows and life is better.
unfair weapon, free range for no trade off, maybe make them use skill points to weild, like 3-4 skill points for sniper?

If you're already spending 3 slots minimum and 20k on it then you're not a hybrid anyway.

[Darkkarma]

This slot business serves to kill genuine crossbowmen as easily as hybrids.  It's like swatting a fly with a grenade.

The simplest solution is to restrict crossbows not by strength but by proficiency.

150 to use an Arbalest
140 Heavy Crossbow
125 Crossbow
75 Light Crossbow
1 Hunting Crossbow.

The higher values may seem heavy handed, but they are unreachable to 'hybrids' yet easily surpassed by genuine crossbowmen.  I'd also balance these values as they were in native, in that, accuracy is scaled downwards as power increases.  In order to preserve accuracy you must invest in points.  180 to achieve excellent accuracy in an arbalest, 165 for the HCrossbow, and 150 for the crossbow.

To be clear. If you have 75 crossbow and attempt to use a light crossbow, the accuracy and speed will be very low.

You do realize how garbage the high end crossbows would be with those requirements set in place, right? Even at 180, the Arbalest would be incredibly slow and impractical in basically any situation in comparison to the lower bows. The current ends of the arbalest don't justify the means of such a steep requirement at all. I would much rather see something akin to a PD requirement added.

[Native_ATS]

If you're already spending 3 slots minimum and 20k on it then you're not a hybrid anyway.

oh? then why did they nerff my throwing lance? your idea dosnt work here... the fact items cost alot and take slots is beside the point

[Tzar]

This slot business serves to kill genuine crossbowmen as easily as hybrids.  It's like swatting a fly with a grenade.

The simplest solution is to restrict crossbows not by strength but by proficiency.

150 to use an Arbalest
140 Heavy Crossbow
125 Crossbow
75 Light Crossbow
1 Hunting Crossbow.

The higher values may seem heavy handed, but they are unreachable to 'hybrids' yet easily surpassed by genuine crossbowmen.  I'd also balance these values as they were in native, in that, accuracy is scaled downwards as power increases.  In order to preserve accuracy you must invest in points.  180 to achieve excellent accuracy in an arbalest, 165 for the HCrossbow, and 150 for the crossbow.

To be clear. If you have 75 crossbow and attempt to use a light crossbow, the accuracy and speed will be very low.

This was suggested a billion times over n over again n again but for some reason never implemented i fully support this idea and have in the past... its the only worthwhile solution and wouldnt hurt the dedicated xbowmen.

But i guess someone in the high end / dev team use it as a sidearm himself since its never been implemented 

[chaosegg]

How many of these threads are there going to be?

Stop crying; xbows are fine the way they are.
As a pole/2h using xbow, you have to sacrifice your shield slot (counter to ranged), to get an inaccurate, low damage, short range counter to ranged.

Anything under a double heirloomed regular xbow has such a low shootspeed and damage as to have crap range and crap damage unless someone gets lucky and headshots (which is difficult at best with lag and such especially with low wpf in xbow).

Have you actually USED a regular xbow or a masterworked weaker one-slot xbow of some kind Tydeus (and anyone else who thinks all xbow should be 2 slot)??

xbows are/were a deadly efficient invention anyways; far more-so than in this game.
Not to mention the extremely high repair costs of xbows (relative to much more difficult-to-repair-in-reality items like chainmail & swords)
The current balance is fine.

[Gorath]

nope, just nerff xbows and life is better.
unfair weapon, free range for no trade off, maybe make them use skill points to weild, like 3-4 skill points for sniper?

I really do love your crusades Native.  You're the perfect example of the ranged playerbase jealousy-nerfing itself into extinction.
"Archer-  Throwers are OP!  They can use shields, one shot, pick up lost ammo!  NERF!"  Throwing is nerfed
"Throwers-  X-bows are OP!  They don't require skill-points and WPF is retard easy to get!  They can 2-shot!  They take 3 weeks to reload while standing still...owait, ignore that.  They're butt-ass expensive...shit, ignore that too!  They can snipe!  NERF!"  X-bows nerfed, and probably will be nerfed again
"X-bowers-  I'd bitch about archery's machine-gun like speed, 2-shotting power, lower repair costs and such along with throwers fast rate of fire, 1-hit killing power, shield-breaking ability and ability to use a shield while ranged attacking....but I'm somewhat content and don't want to rock the boat yet."  X-bow nerfed, following posts "FUCK Archers and throwers, they're too OP due to reasons above!  NERF!"

I really hope you (and the others) keep this cycle up so that we infantry can ditch any and all shields forever more due to the extinction of any ranged bundle of sticksry in c-RPG.   

[Vicious666]

historically (i am italian,)  we invented the  xbow at GENOVA,    they where using a big  shield. called PAVESE.  like our board shield
where they where reloading behind.     and also using a  short sword./mace/pick etc



in game......     xbow is too slow for be a  complete class itself like an archer, you cant jump-aim. shoot like do an archer, or run, turn into a corner and aim. they need several seconds for reload    .if they cant have a  secondary weapon system, pretty much that means eliminate  them completely  as class.  in game, becouse none will play it.

and i not consider OP at all a  1hander+shield and a  a medium crossbow who need an average of 3 bolts for kill someone in a medium armor, i can say that i have 0 wpf in crossbow and when there is a map with many cav i  use one   together with my steel pick and   steel shield, and best i manage to do is kill cavalry with that. and reload is very low. no archer ever considered me a treath.

[Tydeus]

and i not consider OP at all a  1hander+shield and a  a medium crossbow who need an average of 3 bolts for kill someone in a medium armor, i can say that i have 0 wpf in crossbow and when there is a map with many cav i  use one   together with my steel pick and   steel shield, and best i manage to do is kill cavalry with that. and reload is very low. no archer ever considered me a treath.

This is exactly what I'm talking about. This thread isn't about lowering xbows damage or making their shoot speed worse. It is a discussion about the ease of crossbowman hybrids, to which I proposed that crossbows should be two slots rather than imposing a wpf/pd requirement. It's a focus on the fact that several people hybrid with crossbows at 0 wpf adding to the unnecessarily high number of ranged that is going on.

I've noticed that it's worse at night when the server population drops below 30 people. Maybe because it's easier to notice when a polearm/crossbow hybrid kills four people on the opposite team then continues to poleaxe several more to death. Or maybe it's because simply getting one or two crossbow kills per round has a larger outcome on the overall battle when there are fewer people, thus it appears to become more efficient for individuals to bring a crossbow. It could be that in larger servers there are more people to soak up damage which allows dedicated melee(the ones who didn't bring a crossbow with their 0 wpf), to reach the ranged hideout.

Stop crying; xbows are fine the way they are.
As a pole/2h using xbow, you have to sacrifice your shield slot (counter to ranged), to get an inaccurate, low damage, short range counter to ranged.

Anything under a double heirloomed regular xbow has such a low shootspeed and damage as to have crap range and crap damage unless someone gets lucky and headshots (which is difficult at best with lag and such especially with low wpf in xbow).

So then if you think they're so bad, you use them because...? Your claim that they're terrible, isn't supported by the facts. In close & medium range they do decent damage, 20%- 30% to me when I have 9 IF and 80 armor in plate, isn't bad damage. That's more than many people do with melee swings. Considering how many throwers there used to be and how many there are now due to the throwing nerf, I think it's safe to conclude that people in the cRPG community tend to flock to what they think is effective. With the increase in crossbows, I can't imagine they're all doing it because they enjoy playing gimped classes.

I always thought my masterwork heavy crossbow had a nice shoot speed. Maybe the problem is that you're just not getting enough wpf, which kinda helps to point out my problem with crossbows.

Also, more ranged isn't the counter to ranged, especially when all I see is ranged shooting at infantry, not other ranged. Shields and flanking tactics are the counter to ranged.

[Gorath]

Tydeus:  Your suggestion fails for 2 reasons
1)  x-bows HAVE to be hybrids.  They cannot be a primary class due to the severe shortcomings of the x-bow (standing stock ass still to reload for 10 seconds, inability to properly kite)
2)  Making them all 2 slots would simply kill x-bows altogether.  Instead, imposing a WPF requirement to USE the x-bow would stop the 1 wpf x-bow users which seems to be what you are really hating on.

[Tydeus]

Tydeus:  Your suggestion fails for 2 reasons
1)  x-bows HAVE to be hybrids.  They cannot be a primary class due to the severe shortcomings of the x-bow (standing stock ass still to reload for 10 seconds, inability to properly kite)
2)  Making them all 2 slots would simply kill x-bows altogether.  Instead, imposing a WPF requirement to USE the x-bow would stop the 1 wpf x-bow users which seems to be what you are really hating on.

First of all, I think you should play a few times with karma. He uses about 150 wpf in crossbows, there's no room to be a hybrid with that. Second, I didn't say anything about not being able to hybrid altogether. What I have been stating, is that Crossbows should be hybrids with one slot weapons. This means no huge ass, high tier polearms or Two-Handed weapons. I've posted more than once in this thread so I think you should go back and re-read everything. Furthermore I've stated that I proposed making crossbows 2 slots as an alternative to a wpf/pd requirement as I know several people think crossbows are what they are because they have a low requirement, but that I would also agree with a wpf/pd requirement being imposed.

I feel like I should also remind people that this is the Balance Discussion thread, not the Suggestion Thread.