How to nerf archery, without destroying it.

[En_Dotter]

A realism argument in a balance thread

Which i didnt make, but cmp or chadz or someone else who explained why they did what they did. I just "quoted it". I dont have time to actually do a proper quote but its up to you to believe me or not and to check it out or not.

trust me, i have no problem to shoot back and kill guys using pew pew bows i learned it. For me bigger problem are guys with x-bows. I want to change only one thing in low tier bows: missile speed, nothing else. It should be logic relation Stronger bow-> Higher dmg-> Higher missile speed. It's comming from fundamental phisics laws.

Speed and penetration have nothing to do with each other. Penetration depends on pressure. Pressure depends on force and surface. Force depends on change of impulse which is equal mΔV/Δt. The greater the mass and the shorter the Δt the speed hasnt got much influence. Why? Lets say Δt is equal in both shooting from long bow and nomad bow so we can have easier calculation. MW Nomad bow would have ΔV of 50 and long bow would have ΔV of 42 (since it goes from max speed to 0). The ratio is 50:42=1:1.19. So if the arrow mass is 50% higher on long bow then you would have 50*m for nomad bow and 42*1.5m for long bow and that is 63*m for long bow. Meaning long bow with 16% less speed than nomad bow has 26% more penetration.

Edit: i used speeds given in the game. And i forgot to say that nomad bow deals 23 dmg and long bow 33. That is ~43% more penetration or whatever you wanna call it. Common physics and game physics are not to be argued with one another...

Edit 2: nerfed long bow damage from 43 to 33

[Kafein]

Which i didnt make, but cmp or chadz or someone else who explained why they did what they did. I just "quoted it". I dont have time to actually do a proper quote but its up to you to believe me or not and to check it out or not.

Speed and penetration have nothing to do with each other. Penetration depends on pressure. Pressure depends on force and surface. Force depends on change of impulse which is equal mΔV/Δt. The greater the mass and the shorter the Δt the speed hasnt got much influence. Why? Lets say Δt is equal in both shooting from long bow and nomad bow so we can have easier calculation. MW Nomad bow would have ΔV of 50 and long bow would have ΔV of 42 (since it goes from max speed to 0). The ratio is 50:42=1:1.19. So if the arrow mass is 50% higher on long bow then you would have 50*m for nomad bow and 42*1.5m for long bow and that is 63*m for long bow. Meaning long bow with 16% less speed than nomad bow has 26% more penetration.

They made that change with the intent of reducing the hegemony of heavy bows back then, then added a realism paint on it. It was not the argument, but the convenient afterthought that it could be justified that smaller bows would shoot faster arrows.

As a high lvl, fully loomed pure archer you could survive those changes just fine I guess. An archer hybrid though, who already takes only 1 quiver and is bound to low tier bows will be completely destroyed. I tried going 4 PD after the respec and am using my bow primarily for sniping enemy ranged and agi runners, hence carrying one quiver of tatars ( because with 2 there is no footwork for melee fights, even though I would have the spare slot ). Shooting armored inf with 4 PD is just a waste ammo in most cases.

So what would happen ? Most hybrids would probably go pure longbow bodkin archer, even more ranged damage, even more "Steevee's", even more QQ. I sure would go back to pure longbow archer. I understand your intentions Steevee but nerfing a class to make it less desirable to play to reduce their numbers is just poor game design. Neither I think that the ranged situation we have right now is good but I am sure there are enough ways to reduce numbers without actually having to mess with any stats.

My opinions is that changes made to archery shouldn't directly push people out of the class. I'd rather see changes that let the game actually work and be fun for everybody even under conditions where there are many archers. Or, a change that would cause large archer populations to push the population towards another class instead of just more archers. That class should be able to deal with archers more effectively than archers deal with themselves.

[Templar_Steevee]

XyNox, only thing wich will hit archer hybrids will be amount of arrows in quiver, but still 17 bodkins is enought IMO. In c-rpg there were a really long time with this amount of arrows in quiver, and hybrids like Tenne were doing really good.

En_Dotter, pls ceep calm, I never wants to insult anyone, but if you take too personally, better have a drink ;)
About this strong & slow, weak & fast missile speed have nothing to do here. I just don't get why ppl put missile speed instead od speed rating on bow

I'll use your example: pew-pew bow= Bastard sword, Long Bow=Long Maul
so:
Bastard sword have high speed rating and low dmg = High speed rating on f.ex. Tatar bow
Long Maul have low speed rating and high dmg = Long Bow small speed rating and high dmg

Hmmmm... it looks as it should be. Missile speed is in normal conditions determined by bows power: higher power transferred to an arrow -> higher missile speed
Talking that small bows are compound and shooting with lighter arrows is bullshit.

Lets look at some bows:
Short Bow, Bow and Long bow are bows made of one piece of wood. Weakest one have same missile speed as medium one, and both of them have higher missile speed than Long Bow.

Nomad, Tatar Horn and Rus bow are composite bows, and still strongest one have lowest missile speed.

Best thing is that weakest bow made of solid wood have higher missile speed than strongest Compound bow - Rus Bow.

And when i look at arrows, all af them have same or comparable weight.

All i can see here are numbers that are not fixing to each other and put in ruins your theories.

[Templar_Steevee]

long bow 43 dmg

omg i didn't know that my bow is so powerfull...

sorry for double post

[En_Dotter]

Read my previous post Stevee. Also long bow has poor physical properties compared to recurve bows (like rus, tatar) and whatever nomad bow is. A lot of force used to pull the long bow is not transferred into the projectile, while tatar bow design transfers majority of that force into the arrow. Dont use physic to counter me. You will not win the argument man. ;)
Im having my drink right now. And dont get me wrong, i respect you as a player a lot but with those posts i dont think i respect you as a guy who is suggesting stuff.

[En_Dotter]

omg i didn't know that my bow is so powerfull...

sorry for double post

Ok instead of being sarcastic bitch you could have said "check your data u made a mistake. its 33 not 43". But nvm will correct it. Dont know how i saw that number... But doesnt make a difference to the "actual" physics i used which you didnt comment... Good to know that number matters more than "common physics".

Edit: added bitching.

[Templar_Steevee]

Read my previous post Stevee. Also long bow has poor physical properties compared to recurve bows (like rus, tatar) and whatever nomad bow is. A lot of force used to pull the long bow is not transferred into the projectile, while tatar bow design transfers majority of that force into the arrow. Dont use physic to counter me. You will not win the argument man. ;)
Im having my drink right now. And dont get me wrong, i respect you as a player a lot but with those posts i dont think i respect you as a guy who is suggesting stuff.

It looks like you read my post not carefully enought. I compared bows to each other dividing them into 2 clases: solid wood and compound

[Hirlok]

melee lap dog. wooooof


...oh, and: no.

[En_Dotter]

Ok Steevee, seems that you cant accept that mass is more important for penetration when speed difference is not really great. I agree that rus bow should be the strongest bow, but i never mentioned rus bow in my posts. I was commenting on long bow and nomad bow. I didnt want to take into account shape and materials because its not important in cRPG. What is important is mass of the arrow that has been suggested by devs (to justify the patch or whatever else) when they patched this game and speed of the arrow.
You implied that long bow has better penetration (true) and that for that it needs more missile speed (wrong). I explained why that was wrong. What is the problem now? The fact i wrote 43 dmg on long bow 1st time that didnt have anything to do with penetration explanation? I dont get it.

[Templar_Steevee]

What is the problem now?

Problem is as same as at the beginning. When I go on c-rpg site, click shop, then arrows i can see 4 kinds of arrows with same weight per quiver. It means that there are not lighter arrows for small bows and heavier arrows for big and hard hitting bows.

I'm almost an engineer (one year to go), I know all I need from physics and mathematics. I'm also intresting in weapons and martial arts.

As an engineer i can see numbers, and they are not fitting, even more they are excluding (examples of compound and solid wood bows).

[En_Dotter]

Dude, srsly... You should read forums more carefully. I am not making things up. Quiver mass and "theory" behind damage of the bows is something totally different. If devs said "we give less speed and more damage to large bows to mimic arrow mass" what does the quiver have to do with arrow weight. As far as we know quiver itself could weigh a lot, or each arrow can weight a lot, or there could be a gravitational paradox concerning bloody quivers or something else. For someone that is doing physics and mathematics you should know that you must read everything carefully and not assume things. You assumption here is that bodkin arrow weighs 667g (unloomed) since quiver weighs 10kg. There is no way you can assume that and be 100% sure your assumption is valid...
Also real physics, archery, martial arts and stuff is redundant here. As we know chadz is the head of the most unrealistic bullshit m&b mod ever made, which for some reason we love to play. Being so unrealistic there is no room for common sense physics, martial arts, engineering, neuroscience and lasers...

With the same logic you are trying to cure the symptom and not the cause. You see a lot of archers on eu1 and you want to cull their numbers by fucking up archery even more (and thus treating the symptom and not the cause). Number of archers is a symptom... Find the cause and fix it...

[Templar_Steevee]

Point me where i'm fucking up archery. I'm making suggestions to balance it.

Lowering number of arrows to level we got before, and on wich archery were working really nice is good option. Archer IMO should think about most of his shots and calculate is it worth to shoot or not. ATM we have just a spam or arrows, notning more.

Lowering dmg on arrows a bit (1 or 2 points) have some sence IMO, dmg delivered to enamies is quite big, and after last patch accuracy rise really much for average pure archer=easier to make HS.

Reverting looming benifits to archery is good, players should see that their bow is making stronger with every loom point put in it, ATM it's not worth to loom bow, only arrows.

Rider on a horse using bow can manouver his horse only with his legs, so he have to concentrate on it, sometimes have unstable position, that's why he should shoot slower with his bow while riding (Horse archers from mongols army were shooting arrows on full speed when all of horses legs were in the air)

I also wrote what is wrong with missile speed - at least repair missile speed for clases of compound and solid wood bows

All those changes will make archery more skill based IMO, not just arrow spam.

[UnholyRolyPoly]

Getting all in one from last nerf archery topic i suggest to:

1. Revert patch buffing non loomed archery gear.
2. Decrease amount of arrows per quiver (17 or 16 bodkins on +3 should be ok)
3. Reduce fire ratio for bows while shooting from horseback (devs done it to HX, so i think they can do it for bows)
4. Lower missile speed for low tier bows (Long bow should have highest missile speed, but it stay just like it is atm, rest should have lower missile speed with rule: lower dmg ->  lower missile speed)
5. Lower a bit amount of dmg added by arrows

IMO as an archer after this patch I'll be forced to stop spamming arrows if I would like to keep some for end of the round, and i'll have lower dmg (if i'll use non loomed gear)

Plenty archers are using non loomed bows (i can see it because i'm using hireloom models boss pack), so after patch they will GTX from archery or will start using slower and less acurate, but stronger and more expensive bows. HA will also stop to being a raiding gatling guns.

It's a good idea if you want to nerf archery.  But I think it's total BS.  I'm not even an archer but I think the class has been nerfed out of relevance because a bunch of pussy 2h don't want to get shot.  I like archers.  Their presence on a server forces melee to hold position and use tactics.  The problem is most people don't want to do that.  They want to mindlessly engage which is why they get so pissed when they get shot. 

Another archery nerf won't fix anything.  It will just make it worse. 

[kinngrimm]

Preference on player skill, thereby keeping accuracy while decreasing missile speed, sounds reasonable to me. That resulting in more of a need to focus on estimating projectile path to player movement relation. As missile speed also does at the same time too, determin dmg to soem extent, then that would need to be adjusted arcodingly.

...
(...treating the symptom and not the cause). Number of archers is a symptom... Find the cause and fix it...

I think i saw Kafein first mentioning, that the cause for the increasing ranged are ranged players in themselves. As there is no other valid counter, people switch to ranged, resulting in a positiv feedback loop.
It still comes down to, too many ranged. I dont only say archers, but ranged overall.

... Maybe remove bows ...

or quota

or if nothing is done about this issue ...

[Ronin]

1. Revert patch buffing non loomed archery gear.
If that is really required, we shouldn't go back entirely. Maybe +2 damage on bows, +1 damage on arrows is enough but not a fully +3/+3. It was just silly. If you want this, you are simply a selfish archer who wants to gain advantage over other archers with many masterworks.
2. Decrease amount of arrows per quiver (17 or 16 bodkins on +3 should be ok)
Not much of a difference. From 20 to 17-16. I don't see much has changed. Not much of a nerf.
3. Reduce fire ratio for bows while shooting from horseback (devs done it to HX, so i think they can do it for bows)
Horse archers already has lower accuracy, lower damage and lower effective wpf (hence lower accuracy and speed). It was done for HX because it should have been supposedly harder to reload a crossbow on horseback. There shouldn't be much of a change for the usage of bows. Maybe the accuracy should depend on the horses movement (giving the max accuracy while all of the horses legs are on the air; lowest accuracy while horse legs are stomping the ground), that would be a better idea.
4. Lower missile speed for low tier bows (Long bow should have highest missile speed, but it stay just like it is atm, rest should have lower missile speed with rule: lower dmg ->  lower missile speed)
Can't say much as I'm no expert.
5. Lower a bit amount of dmg added by arrows
By how much and what reason? Overall you're suggesting another general nerf to archery.