Meanwhile in Ukraine

[DaveUKR]

About  main police building in the city was said that cheif of DAI Valerii Andryschuk ordered to militia to shoot in civils, but milita didn't obey to chief and made barricade in that building. Then batalion Dnepro atacked that building and burned it. Yes, I think there were armed opposition of Mariupol which shoot to the Ukranian army. About 20 oppositioners were killed, 1 from Ukranian army. But shooting in the civils I think is not a way to make a dialogue with the East. if you will listen to civils interviews, then it almost impossible now. I think from both sides Ukranian and Russian there is no objective information, I write here what says in russian tv and youtube. The violence shouldn't become covered by any motives. I think that russian send some special forces to Crimea to prevent the situation like on the East and Odessa. Thanks to Ukranian army they didn't started to shoot to civils and russian army in Crimea, because then it could be a war between two brother country. But I think that Crimea would made a refferendum even there wasn't any russian army. I think the federalization of the East is a bad thing, because this will almost ruine their economy, as turchinov said. I agree with that. But they need to stop to fight and start to speek with civils.
Dont you think Dave that this war is between Russia and USA and ukranians suffer because of it

Valeriy Andryschuk is not a chief of DAI, I was speaking about Viktor Sayenko who got killed. About war against USA and Russia and Ukrainians suffering because of it. It may be, but even then I don't see Americans. How can they speak with "civilians" if they don't accept anything except separating from Ukraine? They don't accept any compromises, because they have a mission. Sending Russian spetsnaz to Ukraine to prevent fights against Russian army, does it even make any sense? It's like adding oil to extinguish fire. I kind of find it obvious that the only side who has profit from this situation is Russia. Of course USA is very concerned about this and wants to make Ukraine just another minion, it's the other obvious thing but they don't try to destroy the country at least. Or at least they don't do it obviously.

Dave, you still try to caricature. When a russian media talk about crimes from ukrainians militias you reply "Oh yes Ukrainians are all nazees and Putin is the good guy. Bullshit !"
Why not just admit that your country is under fascists militias control (even partially) ? If west ukrainians do not clean that plague, they will lead you to war.

Because it's not true. And even if it was true, it wouldn't change anything. As I've said a million of times: crimes of one person don't justify crimes of the other. There were and there are nаzis and fascists in Ukraine, there are even kind of extremists there. But they're nothing in the scale with those people with guns on the east.

[serr]

Please serr, at least you I call you to sense, doesnt those who label Kiev fascist are as wrong and stupid as those who label Kremlin fascist?..
If you dont acknowledge the comparison and deem that one accusation is true and one is false, it means you are defending a side of the propaganda instead of the simple truth.

pls serr 

While Kremlin has more signs of fascism than Kiev(it really has), there is no common labeling Kremlin to be fascist.

There's more about comparing personalities - einstein and Putin, yet again it is not even close to loud chorus "Ukrainian fascists banderas" from everywhere and speculating on ww2 history by russians.

[Butan]

I can wholefully agree there is more comparison points to be made between one and the other.

I wanted to thank you for being one of most open contradictor in that thread.

[DonNicko]

Valeriy Andryschuk is not a chief of DAI, I was speaking about Viktor Sayenko who got killed. About war against USA and Russia and Ukrainians suffering because of it. It may be, but even then I don't see Americans. How can they speak with "civilians" if they don't accept anything except separating from Ukraine? They don't accept any compromises, because they have a mission. Sending Russian spetsnaz to Ukraine to prevent fights against Russian army, does it even make any sense? It's like adding oil to extinguish fire. I kind of find it obvious that the only side who has profit from this situation is Russia. Of course USA is very concerned about this and wants to make Ukraine just another minion, it's the other obvious thing but they don't try to destroy the country at least. Or at least they don't do it obviously.

It's on russian.

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Dave dont you think that Timoshenko could provoke some acts in Ukraine because of what people die?
I think Turchinov and Yatsenuk have to go to the East and speak there without army? It is dangerous but it would help. Doesn't they escape like Yanukovich? If you will see videos many civilians on the East dont respect Kiev authorities. And it is really hard to do something now. And if you know russian soul, then you can understand that with army you will not get any dialogue. There is only two ways, 1) is to finish fights and get to the table 2) is to kill a lot of people more then half of East.

[DonNicko]

Oh really? I would understand this from Butan, who don't speak russian, but I read mostly russian sources and it is EVERYWHERE. The worst is when people you respect, famous singers, writers you read start talk bullshit about "ukrainian fascism". Lately it came from "ukrainian government = fascism" to "Ukraine = fascism". I'm glad that you think otherwise, but there are clear tries, and it seems rather successful, from russian media and many public figures to equalize our country with fascism.

Yes I know this is propoganda in Russia, I just want to know is the actions where radicals have killed people or beaten them were condemned by government? If yes can you give links please.

[DaveUKR]

It's on russian.

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Dave dont you think that Timoshenko could provoke some acts in Ukraine because of what people die?
I think Turchinov and Yatsenuk have to go to the East and speak there without army? It is dangerous but it would help. Doesn't they escape like Yanukovich? If you will see videos many civilians on the East dont respect Kiev authorities. And it is really hard to do something now. And if you know russian soul, then you can understand that with army you will not get any dialogue. There is only two ways, 1) is to finish fights and get to the table 2) is to kill a lot of people more then half of East.

She could, that's why the vast majority of Ukrainians doesn't want her to become President. Yatshenyuk and Turchinov already tried it before but they failed. Same thing happened to Crimea: they tried to decide the conflict without army, you can see how it ended. Russia wants the same thing to happen in eastern parts of Ukraine, that's obvious. Also "a lot more than half of East" is extremely overestimated, any proofs about that amount of people willing to join Russia?

[DonNicko]

She could, that's why the vast majority of Ukrainians doesn't want her to become President. Yatshenyuk and Turchinov already tried it before but they failed. Same thing happened to Crimea: they tried to decide the conflict without army, you can see how it ended. Russia wants the same thing to happen in eastern parts of Ukraine, that's obvious. Also "a lot more than half of East" is extremely overestimated, any proofs about that amount of people willing to join Russia?

They dont want to join the Russia. They just against new authorities. About proofs you will see after referendum.
About Crimea:

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on russian

[DaveUKR]

They dont want to join the Russia. They just against new authorities. About proofs you will see after referendum.
About Crimea:

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on russian

After another referendum with 120+% of votes? Also how's a video with a bandit "Goblin" can have any place here? And what would happen if referendum fails? Will they just accept it and finish it? You're so naive.

[Molly]

They dont want to join the Russia. They just against new authorities. About proofs you will see after referendum.
[...]

Going to be fun to see another 146% voting where more people vote than registered

Hail open elections and proper democratic process.

[DonNicko]

After another referendum with 120+% of votes? Also how's a video with a bandit "Goblin" can have any place here? And what would happen if referendum fails? Will they just accept it and finish it? You're so naive.

Who is Goblin? Aksenov? Why? Doesnt he say a truth?
And what 120+% of votes? don't you think that is ukranian propoganda, go there and ask people if you dont believe. I have relatives on the East and I know their feelings. I think that it was a mistake to name them terrorists by government, because of that they took offence.

[DonNicko]

q

[DaveUKR]

Who is Goblin? Aksenov? Why? Dont he say a truth?
And what 120+% of votes? don't you think that is ukranian propoganda, go there and ask people if you dont believe. I have relatives on the East and I know their feelings.

Yes, Aksyonov is also know in criminal society as "Goblin". And was never a secret. And no, he doesn't say the truth. He says a part of truth at max but that doesn't make it what he claims to be. In case of Crimea it's true that somewhere around of a half of population would join Russia (enough to bypass referendum) but definitely not 97%.

About more than 100% of votes.

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Oh lol  Just read the official announcement of Mikhail Malyshev (the head of referendum commission): he said that during elections 1,250,426 voted in Crimea besides Sevastopol and 1,724,563 including it. 1,724,563 - 1,250,426 = 474,137. It's 100,000 more people than there are registered citizens in Sevastopol including kids 

I think that it was a mistake to name them terrorists by government, because of that they took offence.

How are they different to Chechens? Or don't you think they were terrorists?

[DonNicko]

Yes, Aksyonov is also know in criminal society as "Goblin". And was never a secret. And no, he doesn't say the truth. He says a part of truth at max but that doesn't make it what he claims to be. In case of Crimea it's true that somewhere around of a half of population would join Russia (enough to bypass referendum) but definitely not 97%.

About more than 100% of votes.

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How are they different to Chechens? Or don't you think they were terrorists?

As I know last population census was in 2001. Maybe some people can be born there in 13 years. Well maybe Aksenov made crime in 90's as almost all deputy in Russia and Ukraine. But I don't see lies in his speech. Government didn't react properly.
I condemn the war in chechnya. Chechens werent named as terrorists. Half of terrorists that fought against Russia are now with Russia. Extreme war in Chechnya began after some explosions of houses in the Moscow. And now this is good region of the Russia.

[Leshma]

Ever since Maidan won? Why is it that the crimean and east ukrainian population, all under the influence of kremlin-controlled media, call the Kiev government a "fascist junta"?

Easy to understand why. You've already heard Tymoshenko's rhetorics. Infamous Svoboda party was founded as Social-National Party of Ukraine, later they kicked out some radicals which formed Right Sector and other neo-nazi gangs that plague big cities of Ukraine.

Putin and Russia aside, big part of current Ukrainian government has a lot of connections with neo-nazis and fascism. Trying to deny that, by hiding behind "Putin says that are fascist, which means they are not" is just silly.

[Porthos]

Yes, it would be a long list of diplomatic and covert offenses, disregarding the constant shittalking. (protip: Kiev government isn't the first they've labelled as fascist)

Can you list at least major of these offenses? Don't get me wrong, I'm just trying to understand, why people in Baltic counties would believe that post-soviet Russia is their enemy. All I can remember is some sprats troubles in the middle of the past decade. And the controversial case of the Bronze Soldier of Tallinn. If you list the basic diplomatic and covert offenses made by Russia, I'd understand your point of view more clearly.

For the past 10 years or so, it has waged an information war against the Baltic states - claiming that the local russian-speaking minorities are repressed and that they are under threat of some impending doom.

So, it is a lie, the stories about the large part of the russian community of Latvia and Estonia still have non-citizen status since 1991, and having a troubles with to gaining the citizenship? And also the language problems for russian-speaking people is a fiction in Baltic countries? Tell me then the real situation about this issue, please.