Thoughts on Religion and the State

[Taser]

Perhaps you'd care to elaborate on that. Why do you think one has to distract oneself from nihilism or you go mad/commit suicide?

Well I'm a poor subsititute for Ligotti who does a good job of showing in his unique way of existential horror.

But if one accepts that life has no meaning and that nothing has any meaning, such as typing this message, raising a child, saving a life and so on, then none of those things serve any purpose to that person. Thus waking up and going to work is useless or anything people commonly think of as productive. This causes the person to then accept that nothing is worthwhile. If nothing is worthwhile, then why do anything? Why go to work and earn a paycheck or try to accomplish something that matters nothing at all?

This then turns into suicidal thoughts as the person understands that since nothing matters, not himself or anything or anyone, then why bother living? Its pointless and means nothing whether the person lives or dies.

Its basically the emotional outcome of a logical conclusion.

So most nihilists will accept that even if nothing means anything ultimately, they still value their family and children and doing well at work even though it means nothing once they die. Its really a fear of death that stops them.. what if I am right .. or what if I'm wrong? But most nihilists will put value on things and people so they don't commit suicide. The ones that don't put value on anything usually commit suicide since nothing has value therefore they cannot see the point of living thus suicide.

Like I said, an emotional outcome of a logical conclusion. Its a emotional decision based on the logical acceptance of a concept.

Just a quick edit.. nihilism isn't necessarily a logical conclusion that is correct. I'm not asserting that but simply saying that once someone accepts nihilism then certain other things occur when they accept that conclusions.

[Yazid]

Well you can look at the world with horse blinders on the side of your eyes and be focused on one thing or you can simply 'open your eyes', it sounds to me like Nihilists are concerned with a bunch of bullshit instead of allowing themselves to experience, rather they keep saying 'why does this happen' instead of 'experiencing'.

[Xant]

Well I'm a poor subsititute for Ligotti who does a good job of showing in his unique way of existential horror.

But if one accepts that life has no meaning and that nothing has any meaning, such as typing this message, raising a child, saving a life and so on, then none of those things serve any purpose to that person. Thus waking up and going to work is useless or anything people commonly think of as productive. This causes the person to then accept that nothing is worthwhile. If nothing is worthwhile, then why do anything? Why go to work and earn a paycheck or try to accomplish something that matters nothing at all?

This then turns into suicidal thoughts as the person understands that since nothing matters, not himself or anything or anyone, then why bother living? Its pointless and means nothing whether the person lives or dies.

Its basically the emotional outcome of a logical conclusion.

So most nihilists will accept that even if nothing means anything ultimately, they still value their family and children and doing well at work even though it means nothing once they die. Its really a fear of death that stops them.. what if I am right .. or what if I'm wrong? But most nihilists will put value on things and people so they don't commit suicide. The ones that don't put value on anything usually commit suicide since nothing has value therefore they cannot see the point of living thus suicide.

Like I said, an emotional outcome of a logical conclusion. Its a emotional decision based on the logical acceptance of a concept.

There are more ways to deal with the existential horror of nihilism than distracting yourself from it or committing suicide.

Life doesn't have any intrinsic purpose, so what? None of those things "mean" anything insofar that their importance is not woven into the fabric of the universe. They mean something when you, the individual, decides they mean something. This is childish existential horror, or perhaps it would be more accurate to call it the "first stage of existential horror." It is certainly not impossible to overcome. It simply takes more time from some than it does from others.

Nothing matters as far as the Universe is concerned. Again, big deal. It's the humans that give purpose to all of this. Why would you need some universal rules for life to make sense? Why can't you decide what you want for yourself? Why commit suicide if you enjoy living, as normal human beings do? Why end something you like? You don't stop playing a good game because it, ultimately, has no meaning either.

Egan's Law: It all adds up to normality.

[Kalam]

There are more ways to deal with the existential horror of nihilism than distracting yourself from it or committing suicide.

Life doesn't have any intrinsic purpose, so what? None of those things "mean" anything insofar that their importance is not woven into the fabric of the universe. They mean something when you, the individual, decides they mean something. This is childish existential horror, or perhaps it would be more accurate to call it the "first stage of existential horror." It is certainly not impossible to overcome. It simply takes more time from some than it does from others.

Nothing matters as far as the Universe is concerned. Again, big deal. It's the humans that give purpose to all of this. Why would you need some universal rules for life to make sense? Why can't you decide what you want for yourself? Why commit suicide if you enjoy living, as normal human beings do? Why end something you like? You don't stop playing a good game because it, ultimately, has no meaning either.

Egan's Law: It all adds up to normality.

Got to agree with Xant there. If existence has no meaning...so what? Your existence always has meaning to you. There's no one free of conceit. I'm more intrigued with the idea of the universe observing itself- and what's more, playing with itself, through us.

Anyway, for those of you arguing for religion, or at least, acknowledging the benefits of religion, what kind of relationship should the state and religion share?

[Yazid]

That is a half-truth and so much so that it may be an old lie. I call you rabble because that is the common believe perpetuated by our times, here in the West.
If you had lived in Egypt you'd be worshiping the Pharaoh. You have nothing new or good to offer this world so you believe in what the vast majority of the population believes, and that can never be close to the truth, in fact it is a dangerous world view to rely on if we wish to progress as a species and cultivate true compassion and understanding.

To answer the question of religion and the state.

In the past it has been used as a method of control.

But in the Taoist belief, the President is busy all the time because he is so well known, so he gets nothing done, he's being visited by the Girl Scouts and then he has to have tea at 2:00PM. The best leader is one who no one knows about so he can really work on governing a Country.

However, religion show aid the state in order for it to not have a need for a state, essentially inscribing the laws of man inside the peoples hearts so that you don't have speeding limits but ideas such as humility moderation and understanding. this may never be the case, but its a worthy pursuit.

Religion should be used to create peace in the hearts of people so that they may lead happy productive lives away from materialistic tendencies and toward long lasting happiness.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ZglcEELacQ

[Xant]

That is a half-truth and so much so that it may be an old lie. I call you rabble because that is the common believe perpetuated by our times, here in the West.
If you had lived in Egypt you'd be worshiping the Pharaoh. You have nothing new or good to offer this world so you believe in what the vast majority of the population believes, and that can never be close to the truth, in fact it is a dangerous world view to rely on if we wish to progress as a species and cultivate true compassion and understanding.

You're a flying pink donkey, therefore I don't have to listen to you.

I'll provide the evidence for this the moment you can back up anything you say with any kind of proof, evidence or logic.

[Taser]

There are more ways to deal with the existential horror of nihilism than distracting yourself from it or committing suicide.

Life doesn't have any intrinsic purpose, so what? None of those things "mean" anything insofar that their importance is not woven into the fabric of the universe. They mean something when you, the individual, decides they mean something. This is childish existential horror, or perhaps it would be more accurate to call it the "first stage of existential horror." It is certainly not impossible to overcome. It simply takes more time from some than it does from others.

Nothing matters as far as the Universe is concerned. Again, big deal. It's the humans that give purpose to all of this. Why would you need some universal rules for life to make sense? Why can't you decide what you want for yourself? Why commit suicide if you enjoy living, as normal human beings do? Why end something you like? You don't stop playing a good game because it, ultimately, has no meaning either.

Egan's Law: It all adds up to normality.

Yep. That's the distraction part. I don't see how you've said anything different than I did. That's the value aspect.

You cannot accept completely that nothing means anything then turn around and be just fine. You either say nothing means anything and fuck it or you go halfway and you say "well nothing means anything really but I still like hanging out on crpg (lulz) or with my family or playing a sport and so forth so that value is worthwhile enough to stick around."

You haven't said anything different than I already said Xant.

And alot people that become nihilists that commit suicide are usually from a heavily religious background. I can't say all or most since I don't know how to find stats on that but its a very jarring experience to go from one extreme to the other and a lot of people can't handle it.

[zagibu]

That is a half-truth and so much so that it may be an old lie. I call you rabble because that is the common believe perpetuated by our times, here in the West.

I live in the west. In my opinion, most people here believe in something. A very large part wouldn't identify themselves as members of any specific religion, but they would still admit that they believe in a higher power, and that there is a purpose behind the fabric of reality. People who call themselves agnostics or even atheists, or people in general who admit they don't think there is a purpose in life are rare.

And alot people that become nihilists that commit suicide are usually from a heavily religious background. I can't say all or most since I don't know how to find stats on that but its a very jarring experience to go from one extreme to the other and a lot of people can't handle it.

It's not about not being able to handle it. Handle what? If you have two choices, and neither outcome matters, well, there will be people choosing either way. At least they died free.

[Yazid]

Xant I have nothing to teach. Nothing is either an advantage or a disadvantage. Yet, people will always think like you and I, we'll just be replaced by them and our conversations will still take place whether you know it or not.

Once upon a time there was a Chinese farmer, who's horse ran away, and all the neighbors came around to commiserate that evening and said 'so sorry to hear your horse has ran away, that's too bad' and he said 'may be'.
The next day the horse came back bringing 7 wild horses with it and everybody came around in the evening and said 'oh isn't that lucky' 'what a great turn of events you now have 8 horses' and he said 'may be'.
The next day his son tried to break one of these horses and was thrown and broke his leg and everyone said 'thats too bad' and he said 'may be'.
The following day the conscription officer came by, to recruit and force people into the army and they rejected his son for having a broken leg and all the people came around and said 'isn't that great' he said 'may be'.

The difference is the farmer wasn't a nihilist he was a Taoist.

[Yazid]

I live in the west. In my opinion, most people here believe in something. A very large part wouldn't identify themselves as members of any specific religion, but they would still admit that they believe in a higher power, and that there is a purpose behind the fabric of reality. People who call themselves agnostics or even atheists, or people in general who admit they don't think there is a purpose in life are rare.

Those who say they believe merely do it for success in business or in life, but in reality they believe just the same thing you do, because there is a stigma to calling yourself an atheist.

[Xant]

Yep. That's the distraction part. I don't see how you've said anything different than I did. That's the value aspect.

You cannot accept completely that nothing means anything then turn around and be just fine. You either say nothing means anything and fuck it or you go halfway and you say "well nothing means anything really but I still like hanging out on crpg (lulz) or with my family or playing a sport and so forth so that value is worthwhile enough to stick around."

You haven't said anything different than I already said Xant.

And alot people that become nihilists that commit suicide are usually from a heavily religious background. I can't say all or most since I don't know how to find stats on that but its a very jarring experience to go from one extreme to the other and a lot of people can't handle it.

Maybe I haven't really said anything different from you, but I don't need to distract myself from the facts to be able to live. "Nothing means anything" is true only in that the Universe doesn't care and never did, we weren't put here for any purpose, we've come this far simply to breed more, for no other purpose than breeding more yet again. But that is different from saying "an individual gives meaning to things." These two things are not contradictory. I may enjoy playing a sport because of meaningless, evolved things: so what? I still enjoy it.  It doesn't have to "mean something in the grand scale of things" to be enjoyable; if it is enjoyable, that's enough reason to do it.

And it does seem you are saying something different, since you claim that nihilists must either distract themselves or commit suicide, yet I am saying those are not the only options.

[zagibu]

Those who say they believe merely do it for success in business or in life, but in reality they believe just the same thing you do, because there is a stigma to calling yourself an atheist.

You must indeed have magical insight if you know what people around me truly think. You should put those skills to good use. Don't waste your time here with us, go fix the world.

[Taser]

Maybe I haven't really said anything different from you, but I don't need to distract myself from the facts to be able to live. "Nothing means anything" is true only in that the Universe doesn't care and never did, we weren't put here for any purpose, we've come this far simply to breed more, for no other purpose than breeding more yet again. But that is different from saying "an individual gives meaning to things." These two things are not contradictory. I may enjoy playing a sport because of meaningless, evolved things: so what? I still enjoy it.  It doesn't have to "mean something in the grand scale of things" to be enjoyable; if it is enjoyable, that's enough reason to do it.

And it does seem you are saying something different, since you claim that nihilists must either distract themselves or commit suicide, yet I am saying those are not the only options.

But you are. If you really understood that nothing was worthwhile, you wouldn't even attribute value to enjoying things. But you did say that this was something of value so you're not saying that nothing is valuable. There's a difference. Its a very subtle difference.

We're saying the same things here Xant. You're too fixated on the word "distraction" though. Its simply a placeholder to mean that one doesn't place everything as meaningless on a personal level. That's all. So exactly what you're saying that if something is enjoyable, why not do it or anything else that brings value into one's life.

[Xant]

But you are. If you really understood that nothing was worthwhile, you wouldn't even attribute value to enjoying things. But you did say that this was something of value so you're not saying that nothing is valuable. There's a difference. Its a very subtle difference.

We're saying the same things here Xant. You're too fixated on the word "distraction" though. Its simply a placeholder to mean that one doesn't place everything as meaningless on a personal level. That's all. So exactly what you're saying that if something is enjoyable, why not do it or anything else that brings value into one's life.

Well, I suppose that I disagree with nihilism in that regard, then. I don't believe that "nothing is worthwhile" if that means one can't attribute value to things. And it's clearly false, because I can do it, therefore it's possible. Nihilism countered. The very act of attributing value to things and making them meaningful in one's mind destroys the claim that "nothing is worthwhile."

[Taser]

Well, I suppose that I disagree with nihilism in that regard, then. I don't believe that "nothing is worthwhile" if that means one can't attribute value to things. And it's clearly false, because I can do it, therefore it's possible. Nihilism countered. The very act of attributing value to things and making them meaningful in one's mind destroys the claim that "nothing is worthwhile."

Nah.

Its merely saying "this has value to me" not saying its anything meaningful. One can say both and not be contradictory. Value and meaning are not the same thing.

I can say that playing crpg is something I value but I can also say it has no meaning overall. The value statement is just a personal statement and the meaning statement is saying something about it on a universal level.