Thoughts on Religion and the State

[Yazid]

kinngrimm you are a very troubled person, you and I are in no way the same people, and we percieve and take knowledge in a different way, but essentially we're the same being, if you define yourself by the EGO which is your pathfinder (eat sleep fuck piss pride) then you will fail to see this, without this EGO we'd piss our pants and walk into walls, but that is merely all it is, and we all share it every animal bird plant fruit, this is what allows life and consciousness for you to try and distance yourself from me shows that you'd kill me if your leader told you to, that's fine, but it's not the true way. .We are the same we use the same energy to think and breathe, with different historical experiences, if we don't acknowledge this we're screwed in this world. ''I just cherry pick from several systems, which then makes my worldview, my reality, my own little universe.'' It sounds to me like you're doing just that, living in your own little universe. I urge you to discover the actual thing, much like Buddha did or Jesus when he realized that not just he, but we were all the sons of god and we will have our own place in 'heaven' so to speak.

[Yazid]

tell me what is it worth, wher do you want to go. And may be: wher do we come from. And why?

it's a worthy pursuit that those that come after you which are in essence you without the experience of ever being YOU lead happy productive lives with solid minds and souls.

we're headed to the end of this life, after that it is not an experience, but someone else will be benefiting from your end, such as a man can't be born and not die, you'd have half a man, a full person needs to be born and die to allow others to come into being.

we come from nothingness, because it has been happening forever, it's older than god.

[Yazid]

I can summarize this conversation by this:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rFuMBEu0ibw

[Eugen]

Do you want a future, where 2 big religous believe system clash against each other in a final battle about the wholy truth? Fuck that shit, we have been there and done that and all sides included failed/lost bigtime. I 'll take a nap or get myself some popcorn and try to watch it from afar, but don't ring at my fucking door and ask for my support.


[

Yes. And No. I think Religion is just about trying to get some sense into the big questions: who, where, why. no final anser. But Muhammad has some good answers, that in the end dont anser anything manifest. Still. Yeah. we are alive. its a wonder.

[Christo]

Muhammad is so enlightened he doesn't know about the 'modify' button

and triple posts

[Xant]

So?

That doesn't change what science in of itself is.

Yes, exactly, it doesn't. And science has nothing to do with delusions. You can check it yourself: nowhere will you find "absence of delusions" as the definition.

[kinngrimm]

@Eugen
what makes you believe i would be narrowed on science? Because i dare to speak some of my concerns? I read and i am influenced by most of the old and new testament, i read the koran, i read partly the talmud, i read quite a few sutras from budism, celestine texts, mostly all texts of platon and quite a bunch of other philosophs, mystical and mytholigical stuff, i love the greek sagas and i was mesmerized by the irish legends, still no expert on each one of those. I havent yet so much read about hinduism , taoism and zen but well i hope for a long life so i may still come to that. As mentioned before, these are to me different systems with what you can explain the world, the reality by. Partly i saw things in them which i collected into my own believe system and my moral codex. Science is one of those systems, which granted has quite an apeal, because it doesnt claim to hold the only truth, but theories about realities which are adjustabel and thereby over time become closer and closer to the truth.
Religions as institutions lost any credibility for me a long time ago and i don't see any need for those institutions, which couldn't also be handled by our states, depending on states and tasks at hand, that is already the case.

Also Eugen the answers of Muhamed as i see them are apealing because they are like the water, hard to grasp while soft to the psychie, while still not telling much, but leaving room for interpretation. I wonder if i would use google search on them, if i would find plagiarterism, well at least he mentoiend a bit of it as citation. My appraoch is different, while i dont want to offend nore be offended, i do look for the controversy to find in the end something to agree on, to find soem truths or get rid of the balast. It is the way of the philosoph i like most, to question things , to find out the meanings behind statements.

(click to show/hide)

kinngrimm you are a very troubled person, you and I are in no way the same people, and we percieve and take knowledge in a different way, but essentially we're the same being, if you define yourself by the EGO which is your pathfinder (eat sleep fuck piss pride) then you will fail to see this, without this EGO we'd piss our pants and walk into walls, but that is merely all it is, and we all share it every animal bird plant fruit, this is what allows life and consciousness

till here i follow and agree complettly, even with the troubled part 
that then again doesnt negelct my findings as wrong, nore discredits my perspectives.
Also read the edit to the post before this one.

for you to try and distance yourself from me shows that you'd kill me if your leader told you to, that's fine, but it's not the true way.

Here is where i think you got it wrong. Ego and void are not mutily exclusiv, they are two perspectives which can coxesist, but dont use the one to judge nore explain through the other.

We are the same we use the same energy to think and breathe, with different historical experiences, if we don't acknowledge this we're screwed in this world.

fully agree here again

''I just cherry pick from several systems, which then makes my worldview, my reality, my own little universe.'' It sounds to me like you're doing just that, living in your own little universe.

So i hurt your feelings now you need to hurt mine?  dont pitty me or i would need to return the favour? Not very Zen like is it now? Or is it more the warriors way , that i striked you, now it is retaliation? I think i may have judged you too harsh, or haven't i?

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as we are now also already sharing some nice thoughts here, let me explain you one of the alterations i took on the rebirth construct from buddism leading from the cause and effect understanding.

As i see it.

Any action you take, will have an effect which will be cause for another action and henceforth. Therfore the analogy of a drop of water into the ocean comes to mind and the ripples as result of it.
The energy balance theories aswell, that no energy ever would be lost, just transformed.

My actions in my life, may they be good, will lead to a higher possibility of good effects and thereby setting good causes. The other way round aswell, the more bad things i do, the more bad things will happen afterwards. Cause and Effect.
When with western understanding but also to some extent with eastern understanding is spoken of rebirth, people at least in the west tend to think of an undieing soul. A part of us which wont die after death.
For me that part which doesnt dies after our death, is already in place before, while we are still alife, but i wouldnt call it soul, but our actions and their effects.
With any action we set into this world, a part of us is inprinted onto the world(if you wanna go out all methaphysical lets say onto the universe *sigh*)
We influence others by our action, if also only in small ways, but it accumulates over time, the good as also the bad things we did in life. The more of the one or the other type of action(it is more like 2 extrems of a pallet of choices anyways), better or worse ^^, the more liekly we get better or worse overall reactions, which also sooner or alter may coem back to us in a good or bad way depending, but with a higher possibility good reactions when we would act mostly good and with a higher possibility bad reactions when we would act rather badly all the time.

Rebirth for me now, is through our actions. we are reborn with every chaotic ripple caused by our actiosn , over and over and over again at invinitum.
Again to choose more the metaphysical language(which i am not a big fan of),
the energy we put in the world through our actions, is refelcting our personality onto the world indefinetly.
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[zagibu]

Kin, instead of quoting and lengthly discussing ... like scientist would do.

First: scientists are humans too. dont overglorify them becouse of theire studies and intellect.

Second: Religion is old. Its got messed with alot and raped and used for war and gain and wtf (same goes for science ironically). Still its part of the human history, human thinking and ... therfore science in a broader sense. Dont get narrowed on science. See the world with your eyes, your knowledge and your criticism. Then tell me what is it worth, wher do you want to go. And may be: wher do we come from. And why?

I always find it cute how religious people remind others to be skeptical of the scientific theories, but when it comes to stuff that has been told and retold for ages before it has even been written down, and then it has been translated and interpreted by thousands of different people, suddenly, skepticism doesn't apply.

Also, he doesn't glorify scientists. It would be stupid to do so, because a theory only holds as long as it isn't disproven. That's one of the main differences between science and religion: science actually deals with reality, and when reality happens, scientific knowledge is adapted. Since religion doesn't deal with reality, it can never be disproven, and there is no need for change. In my eyes, this also makes it irrelevant, but there seem to be a lot of people that are more interested into "why" things happen instead of "how" they happen. I can't even begin to understand how someone would be able to comprehend the plan behind something that he doesn't even understand the process of.

[Yazid]

I don't have to read your wall of text when you reply to understand where you are at your personal point in development. Everything comes back full circle. You quote half my words, and not the entirety of them, you answer to selective things and believe in select things and that is alright, it is through selectivity that we can know ourselves, but what we need is the fullness of the view, not the cherry picked nitpicked view, that you can keep to yourself. We're all learning still I don't expect anything I can only do my best, my input or anything and then step out.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oo2A5lX5QeQ

[_schizo321437]

54:05 

[Yazid]

I always find it cute how religious people remind others to be skeptical of the scientific theories, but when it comes to stuff that has been told and retold for ages before it has even been written down, and then it has been translated and interpreted by thousands of different people, suddenly, skepticism doesn't apply.

Also, he doesn't glorify scientists. It would be stupid to do so, because a theory only holds as long as it isn't disproven. That's one of the main differences between science and religion: science actually deals with reality, and when reality happens, scientific knowledge is adapted. Since religion doesn't deal with reality, it can never be disproven, and there is no need for change. In my eyes, this also makes it irrelevant, but there seem to be a lot of people that are more interested into "why" things happen instead of "how" they happen. I can't even begin to understand how someone would be able to comprehend the plan behind something that he doesn't even understand the process of.

I think its because people who respect and have knowledge of religions no matter what they may be also have great knowledge and respect for science, which has always existed alongside religion since the first spear was invented, now we can try to explain everything by way of cells and atoms, yet, is that view the most beneficial? You can try and explain what a mountain is through words, but if you had to explain the reality of what it TRULY is, I'm not sure it could be done, how it functions why is it standing its history everything associated with it, like your heart, if you had to explain exactly how it beats and gets all the blood flowing you'd go insane, so scientist go insane, and so do those who misunderstand religion, they both go insane.

We need not to think about our heart beating because it does it in itself, or to think about dancing, but when someone calls our attention and tells us to do it again, suddenly we don't want to dance anymore. This is closer to the way the world truly works, you can make a religion out of it if you wanted to, but it probably wouldn't appeal to anyone.

[zagibu]

Why would I go insane if I had to explain how my heart is working or what a mountain is? And explaining everything by the way of cells and atoms (whatever that is supposed to mean) is most beneficial to what?

Your last two sentences are completely devoid of useful information for me. It seems to be English, but it's almost as if you were speaking another language. We don't need to think about our heart beating because it already does that? What? You don't think it's useful to have defibrillators? You could also pray of course, but I guess statistically (yeah, i know, another science, right), it can be shown that defibrillators work better in the case of heart attacks than prayers.
And what was that part about dancing? When someone interrupts us, we don't want to continue dancing? What? How can you speak for all the dancers in the world?
And your last sentence is just general religious drivel. "How the world TRULY works", as if there was a big deception in everybody's mind about the world. And of course, you know better than most.

[BASNAK]

I think its because people who respect and have knowledge of religions no matter what they may be also have great knowledge and respect for science, which has always existed alongside religion since the first spear was invented, now we can try to explain everything by way of cells and atoms, yet, is that view the most beneficial? You can try and explain what a mountain is through words, but if you had to explain the reality of what it TRULY is, I'm not sure it could be done, how it functions why is it standing its history everything associated with it, like your heart, if you had to explain exactly how it beats and gets all the blood flowing you'd go insane, so scientist go insane, and so do those who misunderstand religion, they both go insane.

We need not to think about our heart beating because it does it in itself, or to think about dancing, but when someone calls our attention and tells us to do it again, suddenly we don't want to dance anymore. This is closer to the way the world truly works, you can make a religion out of it if you wanted to, but it probably wouldn't appeal to anyone.

Did you smoke weed while typing that post?

[Yazid]

You guys are rabble I don't expect them to understand anything, I do expect you to grow and find it sometime between now and your death, even on your deathbed.
I'm not subject to the 'poor little me complex' I know who I am.

[Casimir]

why oh why would anyone in their sane mind start this discussion?

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