Thoughts on Religion and the State

[LordBerenger]

Forgot Russia. 2 years of imprisonment for dancing in a church.

Pussy Riot are satanic gay evil people!

[Kafein]

"Scientific atheism" isn't a religion. It isn't a replacement for it. It's something completely unrelated. Absence of delusions is useful when you're doing science, but not related to it.

Absence of delusions is related to science as it's what the scientific method is in a nutshell.

[Yazid]

My point is that you're all being intellectually lazy, everyone knows in fact that science is a man made measure of things, it is not a reality, it's as simple as measuring something and getting the same result. reality is the here and now, with no today or yesterday, reality is where words get clumbsy. you must appreciate this or else you'll be as lost as the religious folk.

[Yazid]

Personally, it's all religions. I grew up in a country where the state favored one religion heavily over all others, and I wouldn't care if they supported Asatru, Buddhism, or Judaism. Any religious involvement in government is bad for everyone. While it's impossible to take away religious bias from the act of government in a society that still practices religion, we should at least try and limit it, if only because of the social impact it has on a culture.

I don't think scientific atheism is the solution. I think people not caring about religion would be better.

Butan is a buddhist society, and they're the greenest country in the world, Lao Tzu says when people talk of religion they shy away, like trying to see the color of your own eyes, as seen from your eyes, we can't do it, because we're enveloped in it, but when people smell good food or hear good music, everyone rejoices, so the master empties peoples minds and fills their cores, or bellies. It is not necessary for everyone to have a deep understanding of religion, or the tao for that matter, but that people live happily and that LEADERS have a deep understanding of philosophy and religion, like Plato's own 'philosopher king'. To quote Osho 'All the religions in the world are concerned with the poor people, the poor man doesn't understand what I'm saying, I am the rich man's Guru! Let me look after the Rich!'.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H0O9IK8bxM8

[Kalam]

My point is that you're all being intellectually lazy, everyone knows in fact that science is a man made measure of things, it is not a reality, it's as simple as measuring something and getting the same result. reality is the here and now, with no today or yesterday, reality is where words get clumbsy. you must appreciate this or else you'll be as lost as the religious folk.

Words only get clumsy if you let them. Science is the best thing we have to figuring out the nature of reality, as nothing else comes close. The evidence lies in the manipulation of reality- what other system of thought has been able to do this as much as science?

It's not faith, you understand. It's a willingness to test everything against what you know, and moreover, a willingness to accept new truths when they're discovered. Religion's answers lie in the past; the answers of secularists often lie in the future.

[Eugen]

Butan is a buddhist society, and they're the greenest country in the world, Lao Tzu says when people talk of religion they shy away, like trying to see the color of your own eyes, as seen from your eyes, we can't do it, because we're enveloped in it, but when people smell good food or hear good music, everyone rejoices, so the master empties peoples minds and fills their cores, or bellies. It is not necessary for everyone to have a deep understanding of religion, or the tao for that matter, but that people live happily and that LEADERS have a deep understanding of philosophy and religion, like Plato's own 'philosopher king'. To quote Osho 'All the religions in the world are concerned with the poor people, the poor man doesn't understand what I'm saying, I am the rich man's Guru! Let me look after the Rich!'.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H0O9IK8bxM8

SILENCE SHARED IN WORDS ... (its too loud. turn down the volume. turn on the speed)

hahahahaha! watch it. "the gap is too big"   Really WATCH OSHO! Stoned. Hilarious.

ok.

Your words are prophetic. +1

[Eugen]

Words only get clumsy if you let them. Science is the best thing we have to figuring out the nature of reality, as nothing else comes close. The evidence lies in the manipulation of reality- what other system of thought has been able to do this as much as science?

It's not faith, you understand. It's a willingness to test everything against what you know, and moreover, a willingness to accept new truths when they're discovered. Religion's answers lie in the past; the answers of secularists often lie in the future.

There: Science. Its the willingness to test everything against what you know. - Its the old sheme of evolution. Everything that can be done will be done. But is mankind fit to deal with the things it can do? Science. not good not evil. just a tool. to do good or evil. And now, who tells you whats good or evil. Is mankind evolved enought to deal with the tools it discovers? Dont know. Not shure. Really not.
Tell me. Maybe old religion has some answers on what to do and what not to do. Clone humans? Invest in atomic energy or in oil in war machinery? hm.

[Xant]

Absence of delusions is related to science as it's what the scientific method is in a nutshell.

Not really. There are many religious scientists.

[Yazid]

This kind of thought is stupid and it will destroy the world, the microscope will only get smaller and smaller the telescope will only get larger and larger, it may just be that we're the summation of everything that happened in the big bang and we're on the edge of the universe such as the fingers are at the edge of your arms and therefore are more complex so to speak. I understand you don't need god to help you predict the weather or start your car, so it has lost value, but here's what I mean.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NL6rcHVgntg

[Yazid]

Not really. There are many religious scientists.

the best scientists respected religion namely newton and einstein who said the religion of the future, if we were to have a future is buddhism..
of course one can't exactly prescribe a religion as the original message tends to get diluted or has gotten diluted or deluded. The best example of his is the Tao.. which was nearly extinguished in 17th century china with the Qin dynasty, and they were 'surprise' the last dynasty. As an example of what happens to a society against the Tao.

[Eugen]

Muhammad, dont forget, next to Logos always was Dionysos, Pan or what you want to call it. There is more then logical thinking to humankind. There is music and dance and love and hate. And its as important as Logos.

Edit:
Ok. forget this. I wrote it before listening to all of your link. You know it. Peace.

[Yazid]

Musashi would say the world is made of the world of men and that of the void.
In this world we fight for glory and to overcome others, the only way we can do that and be successful as he was,
is to respect and abide by the void
in the void
????
but all we know, 'this' comes from the void, or nothingness.
people get caught up in the manifestations of this world, and measure it with sticks and call it 'science'
but will science really give us the fulfilling life we want? or is it used as a tool to get us to do what the ones in power want? what of when we die and had spent 40 years driving a car from here to there, or stuck in traffic, will we tout science? how many people have delusions of living forever, how miserable will they be if they get to live 500 years. If you looked at the earth 4 billion years ago and you'd see there's no life and probably before any water a scientist would overlook the possibility of life.
A spiritually wise person would probably tell you, 'you just wait.'

I love Carl Sagan, but even he knew that as a species we're not 'there' yet and Science will offer nothing to people who aren't capable of using it responsibly.
In order to do this in the future the must be a proper world view, one that is life affirming and not concerned with polemic 3000 B.C things, with a ceramic view of the universe or a scientific view, its neither of those that will help us in the long run.

[Dezilagel]

Not really. There are many religious scientists.

So?

That doesn't change what science in of itself is.

[kinngrimm]

Absence of delusions is related to science as it's what the scientific method is in a nutshell.

Absence of delusions is related to a 'healthy'/'normal'/'average'/'mainstream'/'common sense' way of thinking/statements/behaviour.
By default it has nothing to do with atheism nore religion nore science.
It is sometimes used as a propaganda phrase i would say, though to discredit religous believers. But i give you that, having no delusions does majorly help any scientific results you intend to produce.



Both atheist as religous people can be deluded, but while science(not atheism) is processed with Theories('one' of the scientific methods, not the only one[also not an expert on that topic ^^]) to close in onto true knowledge(which is rare), religions at times claim to pocess the only truths which would matter. While theories maybe wrong and replaced with new once which then are better then the old once, religions ... had also been replaced with new once ... just look at how many had been there already and which gods are not anymore worshiped ^^. Are the new religions better then the old once? depends ... compare old and new testament and koran and talmud .. compare to babylonian, greek, agyptian old mythologies and religions etc. ... hinduism, buddism ... shamanism from several tribes still in existance.

There are many systems you can choose from with which you can explain the world. I wouldn't mind a new book, gathering the best ethics, principals, morals and rules once again(who will be the judge of what is best ^^). In the end it will be again upto each one of us to choose the things from it what we believe is right and what not.

When becomes a good story at the fire place from back 8000 years ago and more a rule in a book?
When becomes a nice imaginary tale, which may have been supposed to give us a foundation for good judgment or just hope in bad times, when does it become a believe system?

Anyone who thinks of the one true god and the one true religion, should ask himself what those who come after us will think about that line of thought, when there is a new book and a new believe system in place, sometime in the future. As if anything else can't taken for granted, that you can. There is still a process in place, which exchanges knowledge, social systems, religions and humans itself. It is based on time, death and change. Call it what you want but mostly it is called (r)evolution(not only the biological one) and you cant believe it away. It maybe for some religious fanatics to be 'just a theory', but man then please find a better theory, which is more convincing or dont get into an argument with science, but adjust or vanish like all the other religions befor yours and if you vanish please do it with dignity and try not to blame the atheists or agnostics ... in short the heretics/none believers, don't get us into a new Inquisition which makes us all hate and/or fear you. Why can't you leave those alone who don't want to have anything to do with you religion, i don't need you, if i would, i would come and ask you, not the other way round.

Do you want a future, where 2 big religous believe system clash against each other in a final battle about the wholy truth? Fuck that shit, we have been there and done that and all sides included failed/lost bigtime. I 'll take a nap or get myself some popcorn and try to watch it from afar, but don't ring at my fucking door and ask for my support.

So again the conclusion for me is the same, state stay the fuck away from religion or you get us into a real mess. Religion adjust yourself to scientific over and over again proven knowledge or vanish as all those which came before you.

(click to show/hide)

RIP George Carlin: Religion is bullshit

while George Carlin denies the existance of god, which makes him an atheist, i just dont know and dont care  :rolleyes:

My point is that you're all being intellectually lazy, everyone knows in fact that science is a man made measure of things, it is not a reality, ...

insult(intellectually lazy) + wrong conclusion.
Reality for you maybe different as to anyone else. So it is not what everybody knows as in average, but as everybody may concieve very differently. There is surly a consense within we find each other and exchange information, that doesnt but make my experience of reality the same as yours, therefor not the same realities. Therfor science  is neither nor not a reality, but a reality someone may have chosen for himself.
Or as i formulated a while above, another system to explain the world we live in with.
I just cherry pick from several systems, which then makes my worldview, my reality, my own little universe.

...It is not necessary for everyone to have a deep understanding of religion, or the tao for that matter, but that people live happily and that LEADERS have a deep understanding of philosophy and religion, ...

slightly contratidicting with the being intellectually lazy accusation of ours through you.
Still something after all i can aprove of.

Muhammad when i now include your very first post onto the topic, which didnt add any value to the conversation from my point of view ... at all. Then i come to believe i shouldn't even have been answering here to you as that also doesnt add to the topic.
...
Fuck me forum whoring.
EDIT: just saw your last post, which was so much better and not insulting at all.
Btw zen / tao, i never got so much into, i do meditate and use several different meditation technics. The void is a good thing, for Musachi as he lived by the sword, it was the focus needed to survive encounters for us nowadays, the focus to separate from all the informational overkill those data which would enrich our lives from the garbage.

Not really. There are many religious scientists.

Which must not be a contradiction depending on perspective. They may be just be checking authenticities and origns of old scriptures, not trying to proove 'other' scientists wrong. Even if the later, it would be ok, the trying part and if possible also the proving part. What i don't like so much is when they would try to do it though repetition and propaganda, not through scientific method and tools mentioned earlier by Kafein.

@Kafein
while i dream from a time where it would be possible to ignor religion(s)(mostly the apparatus, the organizational cosntruct), i don't think in the current tiems it would be wise to do so. We need to watch them carefully, the tides may turn in ways we still not know how they will affect us. But ignoring them so they can vanish and die off, aint a bad dream.

[Eugen]

Kin, instead of quoting and lengthly discussing ... like scientist would do.

First: scientists are humans too. dont overglorify them becouse of theire studies and intellect.

Second: Religion is old. Its got messed with alot and raped and used for war and gain and wtf (same goes for science ironically). Still its part of the human history, human thinking and ... therfore science in a broader sense. Dont get narrowed on science. See the world with your eyes, your knowledge and your criticism. Then tell me what is it worth, wher do you want to go. And may be: wher do we come from. And why?