2h Bastard Sword Type Weapons

[spiritus]

What do you guys think about the 2H Bastard Sword class of weapons, specifically the Bastard Sword, Heavy Bastard Sword and the Longsword? Are they overpowered, or just easy to use? Personally, I've never had issues fighting them and I detest using them myself in strat battles, where I think they are massively overrated(at least for field/open area battles). Not looking for anything fancy here, just gathering opinions and maybe seeing if there are new arguments that I haven't heard before.

If you have to bring them up in a post about them being op that just screams that maybe they are not balanced! I have never had a problem with them but alot alot of people complain about the longsword and sas its op. I think just take a speed and a cut off or something that is similar to this.

[spiritus]

Can't set the damage exactly since it's done through penalties, but the penalties themselves can be changed as they've already been changed before, just takes convincing cmp.
Yes, the morningstar would also get a reduced penalty. Alternatively the pole could get mode removed, in which case they could be turned into 1h where you activate the 2h with x, but this could come with some side effects of its own, not sure exactly.

estoc is in the family so u gotta nerf it aslo to check in with balance

[Elindor]

@ Tydeus - HBS/BS are bastard swords, should address 1h/2h with them.

With Longsword, it shouldn't be a 1h/2h, it should be 2h only (with pole alt mode).

(click to show/hide)

The German langes schwert ("long sword") in 15th-century manuals does not denote a type of weapon, but the technique of fencing with both hands at the hilt, contrasting with kurzes schwert ("short sword") used of fencing with the same weapon, but with one hand gripping the blade (also known as half-sword).

The longsword is characterized not so much by a longer blade, but by a longer grip, which indicates a weapon designed for two-handed use.

It remained in use as a weapon of war intended for wielders wearing full plate armour either on foot or on horseback, throughout the late medieval period. From the late 15th century, however, it is also attested as being worn and used by unarmoured soldiers or mercenaries.

The expression fechten mit dem langen schwert ("fighting with the long sword") in the German school of fencing denotes the style of fencing which uses both hands at the hilt; fechten mit dem kurzen schwert ("fighting with the short sword") is used of half-sword fighting, with one (gloved) hand gripping the blade.

To make it fit its fully 2h status and balance it:
- Reduce speed to 98
- Increase length to 107 or 108
- Increase weight to 2.0
- *IF* a reduction in swing damage is seen as necessary, lower it to 36 and leave speed as is.

No one uses longsword for 1h, and it's technically not a bastard sword so it probably shouldn't have that ability anyhow.

Basically it's a slightly shorter blade than the Two Handed Sword (THS) that should be between the THS and the HBS in speed, and a bit less damaging, and a bit shorter than the THS.

(if made longer, should be carried in two hands like Two Handed Sword)

[Elindor]

- Kaoklai

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[Sir_Hans]

I don't really think they are OP at all...

Are they a good weapon all around and one of the better two handed weapons? Yes.

If you put it in the hands of a bad player does it instantly increase their k/d ratio by a noticeable margin? I really don't think so, It's not very often the leaderboards on battle servers are dominated by longsword/hbs players. I think it is in a good spot right now with its balance of stats but that might just be because I can't use it very well, because my skill is lacking?

I just traded for a HBS from a greatsword. The low range and low damage (compared to other 2h weapons) are the tradeoff for having 100-101 speed. I'm already considering trading it for something else and I haven't even had it for a week. Granted I'm not a good duelist and I play DTV/strategus more often than battle.

In my most humble of opinions, if the HBS were to receive a slight nerf like 1 less speed or a damage nerf, I would really like to see the 1h mode stats bumped up in return to make it more viable for people using it in 1h mode... for 1h/2h/shield builds which are somewhat of a rarity.

[HUtH]

Oh snap, I made that thread: http://forum.melee.org/suggestions-corner/make-more-2h-weapons-a-1-2%28bastard%29-weapon-please/  and now found this one...
Well, I would like to know what are the exact stats of bastard weapons in 1H. The formulae from "Game mechanic megathread" are not really easy to understand, I'd like to have the stats stated by the devs.

[Jarold]

Oh snap, I made that thread: http://forum.melee.org/suggestions-corner/make-more-2h-weapons-a-1-2%28bastard%29-weapon-please/  and now found this one...
Well, I would like to know what are the exact stats of bastard weapons in 1H. The formulae from "Game mechanic megathread" are not really easy to understand, I'd like to have the stats stated by the devs.

Yeah some clarification would be nice.


I think it's secondary mode by pressing X' should be 1h not polearm, that can be reserved for the greatsword class. Then make it's stats customly like they did for the half-swording mode. Something like...

Heavy Bastard Sword - 1h mode

Speed - 90
Swing Damage - 31c
Thrust Damage - 21p


Longsword - 1h mode

Speed - 89
Swing Damage - 32c
Thrust Damage - 21p


Bastard Sword - 1h mode

Speed - 91
Swing Damage - 30c
Thrust Damage - 20p

[Sir_Hans]

I think it's secondary mode by pressing X' should be 1h not polearm, that can be reserved for the greatsword class. Then make it's stats customly like they did for the half-swording mode. Something like...

I think that would be a cool change. But those 1h stats are pretty bleak. It's so slow compared to any of the 1h swords... and doesn't it receive a further reduction in damage for using a shield w/ a 2h weapon? I seem to remember something like that when using morning star w/ a shield?

[Ronin]

no! NO! NO!

What is your problem with the polearm mode seriously? It IS useful and serves a purpose when used with a shield if you don't know.
The weapon was also designed to be used like that. For swinging with both hands or stabbing with one hand!

[Phew]

What makes Longsword/HBS seem OP in a lot of situations isn't the weapon's stats, it's the fact that they are the easiest weapons with which to abuse certain warband combat mechanics (hiltslash, spinthrust, "faux-glance" or whatever you want to call it, etc). There are certain Longsword/HBS users than can hit you so early in the attack animation that not a single frame of the swing animation even renders (Miaodao is even worse about this).

I'd like to see the animation sweetspot system totally re-done for all weapon types. Right now, they are mostly a function of power strike and the user's ability to spin around like a methed-out dervish. If it was simplified to be a fixed window (i.e. you can't stab someone at point-blank range no matter how much spinning you do, you can't slash someone that's at your 3 o'clock no matter how much PS you have, etc), that would improve a lot of balance issues while also making combat look less ridiculous. Then you could speed up combat once people actually had to keep their enemies in front of them and maintain a certain range.

P.S.-The 1h mode of the bastard weapons needs to be buffed, so that they perform just slightly worse than the equivalent pure 1h weapon (Longsword should be something like 32c, 21p, 94 speed). Right now, the 1h mode is so laughably bad that no one would ever use it on purpose.

[Jona]

What makes Longsword/HBS seem OP in a lot of situations isn't the weapon's stats, it's the fact that they are the easiest weapons with which to abuse certain warband combat mechanics (hiltslash, spinthrust, "faux-glance" or whatever you want to call it, etc). There are certain Longsword/HBS users than can hit you so early in the attack animation that not a single frame of the swing animation even renders (Miaodao is even worse about this).

I'd like to see the animation sweetspot system totally re-done for all weapon types. Right now, they are mostly a function of power strike and the user's ability to spin around like a methed-out dervish. If it was simplified to be a fixed window (i.e. you can't stab someone at point-blank range no matter how much spinning you do, you can't slash someone that's at your 3 o'clock no matter how much PS you have, etc), that would improve a lot of balance issues while also making combat look less ridiculous. Then you could speed up combat once people actually had to keep their enemies in front of them and maintain a certain range.

P.S.-The 1h mode of the bastard weapons needs to be buffed, so that they perform just slightly worse than the equivalent pure 1h weapon (Longsword should be something like 32c, 21p, 94 speed). Right now, the 1h mode is so laughably bad that no one would ever use it on purpose.

^This. So much, this.

People look at the stats on these weapons and don't realize that 2handed animations are practically +2 - 3 speed compared to others, especially when you add in the fact that for some reason 2handers have time and time again dodged the turn speed nerf that affected pretty much every other class (I know it affected polearms and shielders, not sure about pure 1handers). The absolute dumbest thing about 2handers is that they can 180 stab all the time. Then, factor in the turn speed with their already high side swing speed, and you get instant hiltslashing capabalities. If 2handers just received the long overdue turn speed nerf, then these weapons might approach some semblance of balance.

[Tydeus]

^This. So much, this.

People look at the stats on these weapons and don't realize that 2handed animations are practically +2 - 3 speed compared to others, especially when you add in the fact that for some reason 2handers have time and time again dodged the turn speed nerf that affected pretty much every other class (I know it affected polearms and shielders, not sure about pure 1handers). The absolute dumbest thing about 2handers is that they can 180 stab all the time. Then, factor in the turn speed with their already high side swing speed, and you get instant hiltslashing capabalities. If 2handers just received the long overdue turn speed nerf, then these weapons might approach some semblance of balance.

Wherever you're getting your information from, stop, it's just not accurate. Sorry to say it, but there isn't a single statement in this whole post that is an accurate expression of crpg gameplay mechanics.

[Jona]

Wherever you're getting your information from, stop, it's just not accurate. Sorry to say it, but there isn't a single statement in this whole post that is an accurate expression of crpg gameplay mechanics.

I seriously question YOUR knowledge of this game. You cannot tell me that 2handers can't turn faster than a polearm when they can 180 and polearms can't even come close anymore due to the old wiggly pikes and all.

[Elindor]

I seriously question YOUR knowledge of this game [Tydeus].

  Uh oh - Jona's blind 2h hate has gone to a new level...

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But yes, Phew, I agree in that really the whole system needs improving.

And to move this away from just 2h hate all the time, stabs from all weapon types are rediculous, long weapons can be twirled around like lightsabers, an ax hurts as much when hit by the shaft as when hit by the head etc, etc.

Admit it guys - the whole thing is wonky from A to Z.  It's an amazing game but it has issues.
What you guys forget is that 2h's fight 2h's too....I know what they do....(and I also play other weapon types on alts).
Unfortunately I am not a big abuser of these things (as people like Phew and Xeen would point out), and would be "better" if I did...but its not natural for me to do things that my character couldnt do in real life with physics in control of the situation - which is why I can tell you that these jenky things are not limited to 2h users.

- Is 2h easier, or more intuitive in some ways?  Yes.
- Are there really jenky things you can do with them?  Yes.
- But is the amount of jenky things that happens to me limited to 2h?  No
- Is the amount of jenky stuff that happens to me pretty balanced between all weapon classes at this point?  Just about

That's the secret.  They couldn't fix the issues deep in the heart of M&B so they made the other weapon types just as jenky. I can't blame them, it's probably the best route till the new game comes out of M&B 2 or something.

Take some medicine and relax.

[HUtH]

[...]
P.S.-The 1h mode of the bastard weapons needs to be buffed, so that they perform just slightly worse than the equivalent pure 1h weapon (Longsword should be something like 32c, 21p, 94 speed). Right now, the 1h mode is so laughably bad that no one would ever use it on purpose.

The free respec gave me the possibility to try being a 1h-2h hybrid, that I wanted to do long ago, but the low amount of wpf points didn't let me to do it, because I was terribly slow or glancing all the time. Fortunatelly I'm 30 lvl, so no wasting gold and xp on alt stf, and after few tries with alt, I made 15/21 154 1H 120 2H, and with longsword and 100 speed shield(and black armour) it's not bad, I enjoy this, though with normal 1H weapon it's still much easier, because of speed(raw dmg is 31.5 if it's -15%, so not that bad).

But other bastard weapons than swords are really hard to use in 1h mode.
Goedendag(why is it a bastard and not studded war club that would look normally in 1h?) dmg is too low, and the lenght isn't really that important if you can't hit normally, even stab is weak and very slow(every 1h will do better, and there's estoc too for some stab lovers). And it's ugly
Mace is too short and has too low dmg, knobbed mace or even spiked club is better and costs 3k less gold.
Morningstar - this is something that might be worth testing, because it has really good dmg in 1h(32 pierce if -15%) and is way longer than other pierce 1handers, but it's also super slow. I don't know if it'd be ok with 12just realised ms has 14 req)/24 ~175 1h ~110 2h or smth like that. I might try it. Pierce dmg could be enough to fill lacking str and PS. But other than high agi build this weapon is almost useless.
Edit: made this 14/24 174 1h 115 2h and it's still slow, it feels like a 1h flamberg with low wpf, is usable for a defensive stance, and can hit hard armoured guys but i can't imagine someone using it normally(unless is a zen-1h-mad-chamberist), and that what you generally can do with bastard swords with this build(fast like normal 1h). Well, probably quite good for cav(I can't say I', terrible as cav, though imho it's too short)
Estoc is a sword, but only for some crazy stab users, because with 22 cut raw dmg in 1h it's a crap. But might be good for cav, someone has seen smth like that yet(shield+estoc as cav)?

I have to say that other weapons than bastards swords are good only for have something in the hand while holding shield... If some 2H user want to use shield coverage against shooters, he takes a shield and a dagger or falchion or some mace and he will do better with these with his ~30wpf in 1h from synergy than 150wpf bastard(not sword) weapon user.
I suggested to make Two Handed Axe, Studded Warclub, Persian War Axe(yes) a bastards, because bastard weapons are fun to use anyway(and it's just a f**kin' flag change goddamnit!), but now I'm not sure was it worth the time to made that thread, it's such a niche...