Author Topic: WPP Sum and Cost Formula Rework(Includes WM)  (Read 55139 times)

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Offline Testicleez

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Re: WPP Sum and Cost Formula Rework(Includes WM)
« Reply #375 on: November 12, 2013, 11:57:41 pm »
0
TBH I don't really care how long this takes to implement it doesn't effect us from being able to play now (not like when siege equip was bugged and it was messing with strat). We can just continue to play as normal till this is released.

Thanks for giving us the new formulas before releasing the update so people can update the build calculators and mechanics threads.
(I hope they are working on that rather than just complaining how long it's taking to get a patch)

Would be great if you can keep updating the OP with the new formulas for throwing and archery changes etc.

I was just about to retire & try a new build, and this WPF rework is not what's holding me back (I already have that planned out actually), it's the item patch that's coming along with it. I'm unsure if the weapon I'm going to want to use will be nerfed. Guess I'll just have to play on my alts until it comes out. Or Tydeus could tell me if the HBS is getting nerfed! :twisted:


« Last Edit: November 13, 2013, 12:21:04 am by TheSexinator »
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Offline robert_namo

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Re: WPP Sum and Cost Formula Rework(Includes WM)
« Reply #376 on: November 13, 2013, 04:17:43 am »
0
This is great and all, but will this affect those glitchy stabs in a way?
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Offline Dooz

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Re: WPP Sum and Cost Formula Rework(Includes WM)
« Reply #377 on: November 13, 2013, 06:58:53 am »
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when is this miracle happening
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Re: WPP Sum and Cost Formula Rework(Includes WM)
« Reply #378 on: November 13, 2013, 07:41:51 am »
-1
Never, hopefully.
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Offline Sagar

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Re: WPP Sum and Cost Formula Rework(Includes WM)
« Reply #379 on: November 13, 2013, 10:16:23 am »
-1
And I hope you're reducing the ratio WPF/Repairs, otherwise you're going to break out people playing STR build. And its even more of a bitchslap to those who wear heavy armor (as if that didn't suck already).
This

So many things are against str builds. What are the benefits for str build anyway? Any agy build with 15str can use all weapons and armors in game.
In this topic I heard many times "good changes, it is the end of domination str builds at battlefield", and nonsense like that.
STR builds dominate cRPG battlefield? Really? Where? When?
Right now - with this state of cRPG, top scores and kills make only agility builds in heavy armors. Now devs will buff them ...

So I ask dev team, what are the current, and what will be the new benefits for STR builds?

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Re: WPP Sum and Cost Formula Rework(Includes WM)
« Reply #380 on: November 13, 2013, 10:29:51 am »
+7
This whole discussion seems to lack a definition of terms. Everyone seems to understand the terms "str-build" and "agi-build" in a different way.
Let's try to set those 2 terms with a definition most can agree with. Should make this discussion way easier.

I start: 15/24 is an agi-build. 24/15 is a str-build.

In Battle and in Strat the 24/15 will always outperform the 15/24 with ease - there are always exceptions but most of the time it will be like that.
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Re: WPP Sum and Cost Formula Rework(Includes WM)
« Reply #381 on: November 13, 2013, 12:24:18 pm »
+2
This whole discussion seems to lack a definition of terms. Everyone seems to understand the terms "str-build" and "agi-build" in a different way.
Let's try to set those 2 terms with a definition most can agree with. Should make this discussion way easier.

I start: 15/24 is an agi-build. 24/15 is a str-build.

In Battle and in Strat the 24/15 will always outperform the 15/24 with ease - there are always exceptions but most of the time it will be like that.

In Strat sure but in Battle 15-24 in let's say transitional will outpreform 24-15 in the same gear. I am in favor of plate armors requring atleast 18 str.

And now he can't play because of "common sense" and he doesn't understand how this common sense works
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Offline Torben

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Re: WPP Sum and Cost Formula Rework(Includes WM)
« Reply #382 on: November 13, 2013, 12:42:09 pm »
+1
This whole discussion seems to lack a definition of terms. Everyone seems to understand the terms "str-build" and "agi-build" in a different way.
Let's try to set those 2 terms with a definition most can agree with. Should make this discussion way easier.

I start: 15/24 is an agi-build. 24/15 is a str-build.

In Battle and in Strat the 24/15 will always outperform the 15/24 with ease - there are always exceptions but most of the time it will be like that.

it really depends.  str builds are more hardhitting and forgiving,  the average player will do better with them.  agi builds give you more power over your fate and a ton more of possibilities,  making them better for the guys specializing in them.
(although 15str isnt enough in the plate battles of late strat unless you use stabby polearms maybe : )
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Re: WPP Sum and Cost Formula Rework(Includes WM)
« Reply #383 on: November 13, 2013, 12:51:11 pm »
+2
Anything less than 8 PS or 24 STR is inadequate for strat battles/sieges. I think that on EU2 norm is 24 STR or higher. Dunno for battle mode, haven't played that for a month or so.

Offline Grumbs

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Re: WPP Sum and Cost Formula Rework(Includes WM)
« Reply #384 on: November 13, 2013, 01:49:35 pm »
0
The game should be balanced around what mode people spend their time on the most. Balance strat around the game, not the game around strat. So armour and str builds the norm in strat? Make changes within strat to limit armour, make the battles less stationary etc

On battle I feel too slow with 24/18 in my 12.6 armour. I will be going 18/24 or 21/21 because its better imo, dont really care about strat
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Offline Phew

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Re: WPP Sum and Cost Formula Rework(Includes WM)
« Reply #385 on: November 13, 2013, 03:26:07 pm »
+1
Or Tydeus could tell me if the HBS is getting nerfed!

For any item patch, you can assume that the likelihood of HBS/Longsword getting nerfed is nil. A couple patches ago they buffed Longsword, even though it was already pretty much the most popular and effective 2h.

Offline kinngrimm

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Re: WPP Sum and Cost Formula Rework(Includes WM)
« Reply #386 on: November 13, 2013, 03:57:06 pm »
0
if i may adapt your
... definition of ... "str-build" and "agi-build"

leq =  lesser or equal
geq = greater or equal
equ =equals

15 leq / 24 geq is an agi-build
24 geq /15 leq is a str-build


15 geq / 15 geq  goes towards balanced

A true balanced build is when agi equ str. On higher levels the margin between agi and str can increase while the build still counts as balanced.


... Any agi build with 15 str can use all weapons and armors in game ...
while not absolutly true, i agree with the thought behind, to increase some weapons/armors str req and some weight values(depending on the weapon length there perhaps too).

The Agi 2h/pole have a combination of very deadly capabilites to their disposal

Weapons length
+
movement speed
+
weapon speed

If a good player with really good motorskills, who is blocking nearly everything uses this, he is in duel situations always up front. In 1:n situations he can backpeddal spam or beckpedal jump much more effectively, or if he would be with the "n" players get much more easily into the back of the followed target...

An agi player should get less advatages the higher the str requirments for a weapon are and he still would use it, str = less weight problems, less str = more weigth problems, slows you down, doesnt let you jump too high and far. Idealy a limiting factor of agi if less str and higher weights.

When i started in 2010 at some point afterwards i went agi based because i couldnt stand the situation anymore that those who couldnt block shit still were able to outmanouver or spam me, sadly enough i feel now often even worse as addiotnalyl tehy now can block, doesnt matter often that the 2h/pole dudes use armor which is heavier then mine and weapons x times the length. Dont get me started that a shield has so much advantages because of ranged, i stopped playing eu1 1 1/2 years back. because of the ranged clusterfucks their, a trend i warned 2 years ago and afterwards, now from not my words but those of others i asked about the situation and was told that in avverage roughly 60% of players in eu 1 have ranged. The only patch which nearly did get a change done was retracted after a ranged shitstorm in teh forum. If this patch reduces ranged hybrids we all win.

Devs, how about making statistics public on a monthly base? So we all would know how many ranged overall, archers, HAs, HXs, 2h infantry, pole inf, pole cav, etc several combinations of what we can use so we have a base for a discussion here. I have seen those statistics before. As many admins had seen those with different types of builds of their own, as many opinions there had been how to interpret them. We all are biased ^^
Depending on how far you could provide these numbers in detail, the less room for interpretation there would be and the discussion here or afterwards could use those facts.(can you provide us with graphs of the amount of different weapons used over the years on a montly base, weekly daily, hourly? I guess we would find a few peeks, which are in need of interpreation)

Anyhow, if i would have the choice, i would get a fix on how many of a certain type of weapons are allowed to be used(spawned with) at the same time on a server, and people would be allowed on the fly to chose different builds/characters so they would be still able to join the server. Or any solution who would limit the amount of certain types of weapons.

That way you define army compositions for eu1 and differently for eu 2 and balance by yet another factor, the amount of players for one weapon. This could change on a daily/weekly or monthly base, so that you get certain army compositions on the server adn the commanders could plan their tactics accordingly(fuck the banner balance). As it looks to me, you never did get a complete grip on balancing by increasing or decreasing certain values of a weapon or a skill or an attribute.

Another way would be to increase even more the need for slot amount, i always enjoyed it when i started, searching for a nice weapon which would complete my outfit, but i werent able to buy yet.
Make looting again a nessacity.

In any case playability should beat realism or

if it is enoyable but not realistic, then you havent found yet the perfect forumlar
if it is realistic but not enjoyable , who would want to play that shit anyhow


*morethenenoughsaid*

EDIT:
In Strat sure but in Battle 15-24 in let's say transitional will outpreform 24-15 in the same gear. I am in favor of plate armors requring atleast 18 str.
I would also like that agi based playstyles are more included for strategus tactics, this seems to be mostly achievable only for overland battles and if the clan/faction cares about it.
Having the highest value armors using 18 to 21 str i also would support.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2013, 04:18:19 pm by kinngrimm »
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Offline Tydeus

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Re: WPP Sum and Cost Formula Rework(Includes WM)
« Reply #387 on: November 13, 2013, 04:49:04 pm »
+1
Having the highest value armors using 18 to 21 str i also would support.
Have any of you guys actually thought that maybe this would set a STR constraint on how little you can have if you want a viable strat character? Scaling str requirements up to 18 might not be so bad for battle, but scaling them to 21 would have serious limitations on how viable 12 - 15 str characters can be.

Edit: Armor makes a huge difference in this game, I would actually argue that of all items and character stats, armor value(or effective HP) makes a larger difference in a fight overall, than anything else .
« Last Edit: November 13, 2013, 04:56:56 pm by Tydeus »
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Offline Penitent

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Re: WPP Sum and Cost Formula Rework(Includes WM)
« Reply #388 on: November 13, 2013, 04:51:50 pm »
+2
Have any of you guys actually thought that maybe this would set a STR constraint on how little you can have if you want a viable strat character? Scaling str requirements up to 18 might not be so bad for battle, but scaling them to 21 would have serious limitations on how viable 12 - 15 str characters can be.

Or strat would have to be something besides all plate users?

Offline Falka

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Re: WPP Sum and Cost Formula Rework(Includes WM)
« Reply #389 on: November 13, 2013, 04:52:19 pm »
0
So armour and str builds the norm in strat? Make changes within strat to limit armour,

Simple solution to gayness of current strat - introduce limit for heavy armors, let's say armies can use no more than 500 armors over 17 weight in one battle. Bah, end of full plate armies.
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