Author Topic: WPP Sum and Cost Formula Rework(Includes WM)  (Read 55680 times)

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Offline BlueKnight

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Re: WPP Sum and Cost Formula Rework(Includes WM)
« Reply #300 on: November 11, 2013, 05:10:03 pm »
+1
You missed the multiple posts from myself and others where I said weapons(particularly the rondel dagger) was getting nerfed. Both in speed, and in damage.

hmmm, so this time developers reacted only few months after sombody suggested it! Compared to suggested 'commander of the team' which took nearly 3 years to implement, we have a nice dev-progress!

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Offline Fips

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Re: WPP Sum and Cost Formula Rework(Includes WM)
« Reply #301 on: November 11, 2013, 05:32:05 pm »
+4
hmmm, so this time developers reacted only few months after sombody suggested it! Compared to suggested 'commander of the team' which took nearly 3 years to implement, we have a nice dev-progress!

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None of the devs get paid for what they are doing, something many people tend to forget when it comes to changes to this mod. So stop expecting so much for this. Just be happy that there are still some people working to improve this mod, although changes take quite some time.

Offline Rebelyell

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Re: WPP Sum and Cost Formula Rework(Includes WM)
« Reply #302 on: November 11, 2013, 05:42:20 pm »
+4
You missed the multiple posts from myself and others where I said weapons(particularly the rondel dagger) was getting nerfed. Both in speed, and in damage.
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Offline Jarlek

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Re: WPP Sum and Cost Formula Rework(Includes WM)
« Reply #303 on: November 11, 2013, 05:50:50 pm »
+1
Tested this already with Urist's archery damage calculator.

So if for an 18/27 6PD 9WM archer you think 1.4 (61.30 to 62.69) more raw(meaning you can expect the actual difference to be cut down to half a point after armor) damage is a large difference, then sure. Huge buff. Keep in mind this is 1/3 of the damage you'd gain if we buffed ammo or bows by 1 damage, or 1/6 of what you'd gain by adding 3 more str and 1 more PD.  :wink:
Don't trust the damage calculator if that's the results it's showing.

Back when I was 2h/archer hybrid (yeah, long time but no archery damage mechanic changes has been mentioned since then), me and shema (who was also archer/2h hybrid) did some damage test on butan while waiting for a strat battle to start. We had identical builds, except I had less archery wpf and more melee. He needed 3-4 headshots to kill butan with a horn bow and bodkins, while I needed 5-6, we only tested it 3-4 times each though. I don't know the mechanics behind it, but the extra damage you get from wpf is very noticeable.
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Offline Leshma

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Re: WPP Sum and Cost Formula Rework(Includes WM)
« Reply #304 on: November 11, 2013, 06:22:25 pm »
+2
100 effective wpf = 1 PS is a myth. It takes a lot less wpf to match one power strike level. I had 8 WM for two years and now with same build but with 1 WM can feel the massive difference in damage. Check san's posts in guides section, you'll see how much wpf affects damage.

Offline Gmnotutoo

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Re: WPP Sum and Cost Formula Rework(Includes WM)
« Reply #305 on: November 11, 2013, 06:24:54 pm »
0
Don't trust the damage calculator if that's the results it's showing.

Back when I was 2h/archer hybrid (yeah, long time but no archery damage mechanic changes has been mentioned since then), me and shema (who was also archer/2h hybrid) did some damage test on butan while waiting for a strat battle to start. We had identical builds, except I had less archery wpf and more melee. He needed 3-4 headshots to kill butan with a horn bow and bodkins, while I needed 5-6, we only tested it 3-4 times each though. I don't know the mechanics behind it, but the extra damage you get from wpf is very noticeable.

You just validated the need to increase damage and weapon proficiency by saying someone survives 3-6 headshots.
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Offline Zlisch_The_Butcher

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Re: WPP Sum and Cost Formula Rework(Includes WM)
« Reply #306 on: November 11, 2013, 06:29:44 pm »
0
You just validated the need to increase damage and weapon proficiency by saying someone survives 3-6 headshots.
Butan survives two throwing lance (teammate) headshots.
1H stab is the fastest, strongest and longest 1H animation. There's no reason NOT to use it in all instances. I don't know if it's OP, but it's boring. 1H used to be fun because you had a fast (left), long (right) and the most devastating attack (stab) and had to choose the best attack for each occasion.

Offline Gmnotutoo

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Re: WPP Sum and Cost Formula Rework(Includes WM)
« Reply #307 on: November 11, 2013, 06:30:35 pm »
0
Butan survives two throwing lance (teammate) headshots.

I can't even survive one of those at my legs. :( Also, butan was supposed to duel me. Agi whore vs str slut.
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Offline HarryCrumb

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Re: WPP Sum and Cost Formula Rework(Includes WM)
« Reply #308 on: November 11, 2013, 06:31:29 pm »
+1
hmmm, so this time developers reacted only few months after sombody suggested it! Compared to suggested 'commander of the team' which took nearly 3 years to implement, we have a nice dev-progress!

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The only update more obnoxious than the 'commander of the team' update was the zero damage report update

Offline San

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Re: WPP Sum and Cost Formula Rework(Includes WM)
« Reply #309 on: November 11, 2013, 06:38:36 pm »
+6
100 effective wpf = 1 PS is a myth. It takes a lot less wpf to match one power strike level. I had 8 WM for two years and now with same build but with 1 WM can feel the massive difference in damage. Check san's posts in guides section, you'll see how much wpf affects damage.
Saul was the first to open my eyes, all credit to him. I just made a few functions based on this and came to some of my own conclusions. Take note that this doesn't include the strength/5 damage bonus which is actually quite good, too.
http://forum.melee.org/general-discussion/wpf-and-damage/
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The higher your PS, the more wpf helps your damage. Getting a lot of wpf isn't as effective with very low PS. Wpf differences also seem to result in a larger change on the lower end, too (don't know exactly why for this).
« Last Edit: November 11, 2013, 06:42:59 pm by san. »

Offline Turkhammer

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Re: WPP Sum and Cost Formula Rework(Includes WM)
« Reply #310 on: November 11, 2013, 06:45:55 pm »
0
1:1 split wpf hybrids will have about 5% less wpf in each type. a 50/150 split or a 90/170 is basically the same as what they have now.

Why would you want to nerf a balanced build?

Offline Turkhammer

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Re: WPP Sum and Cost Formula Rework(Includes WM)
« Reply #311 on: November 11, 2013, 06:53:08 pm »
0
But for all clases not only ranged.
WPF  should affect only accuracy and speed, not dmg.

LOL, if you can hit more accurately with higher speed, that results in more damage. 

Offline Penitent

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Re: WPP Sum and Cost Formula Rework(Includes WM)
« Reply #312 on: November 11, 2013, 07:41:44 pm »
0
Please tell us when patch is planned to be out, even a general idea is good.

Also, please tell us which weapons are being adjusted.  :)  THanks!

Offline dynamike

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Re: WPP Sum and Cost Formula Rework(Includes WM)
« Reply #313 on: November 11, 2013, 07:42:10 pm »
+1
Yes, but I'm not convinced we should be catering to certain types of hybrids. Does hybridization bring variety to crpg? Yes, absolutely. Should variety be the overwhelming priority and focus in such a way that we might occasionally forsake other gameplay aspects? No. I love variety and I love customization(no one who has taken a look at the item patches this year can honestly state otherwise), but all things are best in moderation. Do I have a problem with double/triple melee hybrids? No. Do I have a problem with melee+ranged/cav hybrids? Yes, these are what worry me. I don't want to nerf ranged or cav, that would be far too broad of an approach with a wide range of consequences.

My issue, is that a 2:1 or 3:1 ranged:melee wpf split is better for gameplay than a 1:1 is. A 1:1 split doesn't have to make nearly as much of a sacrifice as a 3:1 does. Because of this, we have the current status quo which is too inviting to players to do certain melee/ranged hybrid builds, particularly but not limited to, those that involve crossbows. What I'd rather see done, is doing things like rebalancing the crossbow back to how it was pre-nerf, and changing hybrids so that it's less effective for those 1:1 ratio splits, and more effective for the dedicated/3:1 guys. Unfortunately, the current wpf status quo keeps us from doing this and thus limits the viable options a dedicated(specialized) player has to choose from.

Lastly, for melee hybrids the following would be ideal, although no promises are being made. This falls well outside of my realm and requires overlords.
"<Shik>  so tydeus
<Shik> wpf in any melee category having partial effect on other melee categories y/n
<Tydeus> yes.
<Shik> the only difficulty is coming up with the right sort of maths
<Shik> to make it make sense
<Shik> probably easier just to have combined melee wpf
"

tldr; this is the tldr version.

I understand that especially melee/ranged hybrids CAN be a powerful combination in CERTAIN situations, but they lack the power to stand up to any dedicated class:

With my build I can neither play an effective long range sniper xbow (xbow WPF too low), nor a horse xbow (no HA WPF), nor a dedicated dueler (balanced STR/AGI), nor outcav other riders with anything but skill (bare minimum Courser riding skill). I can't hoplite effectively (pole WPF too low, shield skill low), can't run away from others (medium AGI) and can't tank (medium STR/IF).

What I can do is stab peasants in the back on my horse when the map is open and run around with my xbow on roof passages when the map is a village. I can poke foes through the front lines when my team needs it and I can hold a shield when the catapult is under archer fire.

I can do many things when the situation requires it, but I can do none of them especially well.

What I can though, is have fun while doing it.

I'd be open to any alternative changes, as long as hybrids do not get jeopardized.
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Offline Penitent

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Re: WPP Sum and Cost Formula Rework(Includes WM)
« Reply #314 on: November 11, 2013, 07:47:32 pm »
+2
Also, I have a archer/1h/thrower alt, and this is pretty much going to screw up that character.

I really think there should be a way to respec Powerdraw and/or powerthrow so that hybrids like this can choose one or the other.