Author Topic: WPP Sum and Cost Formula Rework(Includes WM)  (Read 55675 times)

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Offline Tydeus

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Re: WPP Sum and Cost Formula Rework(Includes WM)
« Reply #270 on: November 11, 2013, 06:19:17 am »
+1
Think the bigger balance change for 18/27 archers is that they will be able to go 18/24 and more or less maintain the same WPF, freeing up 7 skill points.
High conversion builds are never the way to go for maximum effectiveness, instead they're what you do when you choose to specialize in something, and that's what the build is all about. For a higher level character, 18/27 is the same as 18/24 is to a level 30. This probably won't happen though, because the status quo would have been changed. Another way to put it, is that a build's perceived effectiveness(18/27) isn't only about how well it does against other classes, but how well it does in comparison to other similar builds, primarily within its own weapon class(an 18/24 archer build underperforms an 18/27 with a bow, yet also underperforms an 18/21 as a hybrid build and thus outperforms it with a bow). And it's this perceived effectiveness, not actual effectiveness, that we base our decisions upon.

Any way to address this?
Yes, but I'm not convinced we should be catering to certain types of hybrids. Does hybridization bring variety to crpg? Yes, absolutely. Should variety be the overwhelming priority and focus in such a way that we might occasionally forsake other gameplay aspects? No. I love variety and I love customization(no one who has taken a look at the item patches this year can honestly state otherwise), but all things are best in moderation. Do I have a problem with double/triple melee hybrids? No. Do I have a problem with melee+ranged/cav hybrids? Yes, these are what worry me. I don't want to nerf ranged or cav, that would be far too broad of an approach with a wide range of consequences.

My issue, is that a 2:1 or 3:1 ranged:melee wpf split is better for gameplay than a 1:1 is. A 1:1 split doesn't have to make nearly as much of a sacrifice as a 3:1 does. Because of this, we have the current status quo which is too inviting to players to do certain melee/ranged hybrid builds, particularly but not limited to, those that involve crossbows. What I'd rather see done, is doing things like rebalancing the crossbow back to how it was pre-nerf, and changing hybrids so that it's less effective for those 1:1 ratio splits, and more effective for the dedicated/3:1 guys. Unfortunately, the current wpf status quo keeps us from doing this and thus limits the viable options a dedicated(specialized) player has to choose from.

Lastly, for melee hybrids the following would be ideal, although no promises are being made. This falls well outside of my realm and requires overlords.
"<Shik>  so tydeus
<Shik> wpf in any melee category having partial effect on other melee categories y/n
<Tydeus> yes.
<Shik> the only difficulty is coming up with the right sort of maths
<Shik> to make it make sense
<Shik> probably easier just to have combined melee wpf
"

tldr; this is the tldr version.
chadz> i wouldnt mind seeing some penis on my character

Offline Jona

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Re: WPP Sum and Cost Formula Rework(Includes WM)
« Reply #271 on: November 11, 2013, 06:58:37 am »
0
I personally still don't see this as much of a nerf to strength builds at all. Everyone knows that wpf in melee as of now is barely useful. Someone with 172 wpf (8WM) should be rewarded for their dedication to one weapon type (specialization) instead of choosing the more fun / versatile way of hybridizing, or choosing the full str alternative which has low wpf. However, as of now the damage increase with wpf is minimal, and the speed bonus is effectively non-existent. The only time 2 players with the same wep but different wpfs would see a difference is if they swung at the exact same time... and I mean EXACT same time. In a fast paced game like this, that just never happens. If you really wanted to nerf str builds, keep the wpf system as it is, but make wpf USEFUL. Many str builds will just stay as they are after the patch because frankly it doesn't do all that much to them. Does it hurt hybrids? Sure, maybe a little, but they really don't need all that much wpf anyways.
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Offline Grumbs

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Re: WPP Sum and Cost Formula Rework(Includes WM)
« Reply #272 on: November 11, 2013, 10:26:37 am »
0
Can you create a melee cap based on your ranged WPF? Like add in some PS % damage reduction based on your ranged WPF. Then you don't need to worry about people hybridding ranged/melee so much and can let people have their melee hybrids

Otherwise, I think a lot of this hybrid discussion is about ranged guys that just want to be as good at melee as at ranged. Melee players don't expect to be strong at ranged too, neither should ranged. Right now xbows are far too really easy to hybrid without losing much melee effectiveness
If you have ranged troubles use this:

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Offline Casimir

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Re: WPP Sum and Cost Formula Rework(Includes WM)
« Reply #273 on: November 11, 2013, 12:21:13 pm »
+1
basically having 6WM will now be useful.

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Offline Tzar

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Re: WPP Sum and Cost Formula Rework(Includes WM)
« Reply #274 on: November 11, 2013, 12:23:45 pm »
+1
People bitching about hybrids being super powerfull.... lol try it before you comment on it.

Decent pure build players will always beat hybrids in melee...

I've never played a server where people split up as much or as often as on EU1.  No wonder range is having a field day.

Offline Grumbs

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Re: WPP Sum and Cost Formula Rework(Includes WM)
« Reply #275 on: November 11, 2013, 12:51:21 pm »
+1
Ideally we should have both a ranged WM and a melee WM, then we can do away with melee WPF and have all 3 weapon types governed by the same skill. It would need to draw from a pool of points, putting points in melee WM subtracts from ranged WM etc

Depends on the type of hybrid atm though. If its a ranged/melee hybrid then you can't just look at melee balance, you have to consider that you can kill guys before they even get into melee, or make them die in fewer melee hits so their melee ability needs to be lower than a pure build.

If you want to spread WPF over 3 melee types then you just need to get 7wm and can go 99/100/100 or 88/88/118.
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Re: WPP Sum and Cost Formula Rework(Includes WM)
« Reply #276 on: November 11, 2013, 01:13:06 pm »
0
I just don't get you ppl. You started whining about 18/27 archers, but there are only few ppl with this bulid and it's reachable on hi lvl (33 at least).

 
Archer forever :D

Offline Clockworkkiller

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Re: WPP Sum and Cost Formula Rework(Includes WM)
« Reply #277 on: November 11, 2013, 01:28:03 pm »
+1
This fucks over my throwing lance hoplite hybrid

I was already having trouble trying to split WPF between pole an throwing
I can't hit shit, but Atleast when I do, with 7PT and 7PS, it dies in 1 shot


That's a fun build too, but I guess it's fucked now
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Offline Pinche

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Re: WPP Sum and Cost Formula Rework(Includes WM)
« Reply #278 on: November 11, 2013, 01:29:52 pm »
+2
I think this is going to fuck the mod even more than now.

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Offline Vermilion

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Re: WPP Sum and Cost Formula Rework(Includes WM)
« Reply #279 on: November 11, 2013, 01:35:01 pm »
0
I think that whole idea to this patch is to force players to retire and change their builds. Because of strategus, everyone is high level and in strategus everyone wears plate which means that massive strat battle lasts longer and gives insane amount of XP. With more agi oriented builds, we'll have less plate in strat and battle will last shorted therefore giving less XP.

Really? Did you even look at the requirements before making this post?

Gothic plate and Heavy Plate armor only require 15 strength.
Which means at level 30 you could have a 15:24 build with 8 WM & 8 athletics.

This will result in people being faster in plate with less HP, this means you will be able to kill more in the same period of time (ranged will be more effective due to people having less HP on average and people who stick with strength builds will only need a couple hits to kill people in plate). This will increase EXP not reduce it.

Also strat battle time limits are controlled by the number of tickets not the equipment so even if people did start bringing less plate (which most if not all factions will have already bought), the battles would last the same length of time.

Offline Osiris

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Re: WPP Sum and Cost Formula Rework(Includes WM)
« Reply #280 on: November 11, 2013, 01:49:22 pm »
0
afaik its only going to hurt you if your something like 27+ str and 12 agi or less. hardly going to make everyone go 15-tonsoagi :P
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Offline Phew

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Re: WPP Sum and Cost Formula Rework(Includes WM)
« Reply #281 on: November 11, 2013, 01:56:36 pm »
+9
Gothic plate and Heavy Plate armor only require 15 strength.

The top plate armors should require like 24 str, not 15/16. Heck, with only 12 str, you can get up to 64 body armor (lamellar armor+gaunts, both +3), so the medium armors should have slightly higher requirements also. 12 strength shouldn't allow anything higher than Heraldic Mail.

Offline Sagar

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Offline Tony007rammstein

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Re: WPP Sum and Cost Formula Rework(Includes WM)
« Reply #283 on: November 11, 2013, 02:09:48 pm »
0
When the changes will be integrated?

Offline Prpavi

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Re: WPP Sum and Cost Formula Rework(Includes WM)
« Reply #284 on: November 11, 2013, 02:16:27 pm »
+1
When the changes will be integrated?

December 2010
And now he can't play because of "common sense" and he doesn't understand how this common sense works
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