Author Topic: 1h stab  (Read 14624 times)

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Offline Kafein

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Re: 1h stab
« Reply #180 on: October 22, 2013, 03:19:29 pm »
0
Love how Kafein thinks literally instant hits is bullshit, be it stabs or swings, when it only deals damage on ridiculously low armour, which he himself uses (naked). I also have a character with 6 body armour, and there's some hits that I can't react to, not a chance, but on every other character (>25 armour) I can block the regular hiltslashes and fast stabs if I'm paying a bit attention.

Get more armour and the game makes more sense. A leather jerkin and mail gauntlets/leather gloves doesn't slow you down a lot, looks nice and the real instant hits are gone. If you don't do it, fine, but the game is not balanced around naked players with a deli hat.


Can't be arsed replying to all the other stuff I disagree with. :P

That's really a fair point and I have exactly the same experience (my 2h alt uses lordly rus plate, my pole alt uses sarranid guard). However that still doesn't mean those instant hits are blockable, they just bounce (which is better anyway as it causes a longer stun). It also means that weapons with very high damage (...awlpike badum tsss) can still facehug instant connect even through medium armor, there's no "armor wall" at some arbitrary armor value that prevents "that kind of bullshit" from ever happening.


Interestingly, even being naked there are attacks that completely miss the sweetspot and connect with my model, cause a stun yet do very little to no damage.

Offline Akynos

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Re: 1h stab
« Reply #181 on: October 22, 2013, 03:51:14 pm »
-2
Well here we go again... shit I have too much free time on my hands.

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Offline Gurnisson

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Re: 1h stab
« Reply #182 on: October 22, 2013, 03:56:45 pm »
+1
You need to be in facehug range to nudge at all. If you s-key someone who tries to nudge you, you'll never, ever get nudged.

I nudge a lot on my 1h alt because of the free 33 pierce stab (:D), but pretty much the only guys I nudge are backpedaling. A bit risky on enemies with okay athletics who strafe a lot. How you can say you can't be nudged while backpedaling is beyond me. You can even knock them down while they backpedal, which is hilarious.
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Offline Mala

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Re: 1h stab
« Reply #183 on: October 22, 2013, 04:06:59 pm »
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Nightmare, Mala, ehm, do you really think that 1h stab doesn't need some kind of nerf?

...

I would prefer a fix for all stabs.

Ok, my major issues before the stab patch were,

my stab attacks with my short weapon have glanced at short range because it was too close (the tip did not even touch the enemy hit box)
and stabs have glanced at long range because of the damage falloff (sometimes combined with a negative speed bonus) even against cloth armour.

i could land stabs at close range but it was a way more reliably with my "low str / low dmg" 2hand build than with my  "high str / high dmg" 1h build (i have tested a few generations with this).

after the patch i have still glanced at short range but my long range attacks where much more dangerous, while 2h and pole arms still can hit you at close range, attack with 90° angles without great effort or hit you through doors, walls or even teammates.

to cut a long story short, i would like to see stab attacks which work within the weapon range and do not require animation exploits.

« Last Edit: October 22, 2013, 04:21:11 pm by Mala »

Offline Mala

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Re: 1h stab
« Reply #184 on: October 22, 2013, 04:21:00 pm »
0
Well here we go again... shit I have too much free time on my hands.
...

Heavy is a very subjective word, but I disagree on them being such a burden as you describe them. Yes, maybe it's because I used to play with 3 agi, but I play 18/18 with a plate covered shield and medium-heavy armor and I'm decently fast. No need to ''stack athletics'' or wear light armor.
Getting kicked or mauled is rare in battle mode.

heavy in this case means double of the actual weight.  the thing is, the weight for the shield has no real benefit, you can be block stunned even while using a large steel shield.
alone to carry a shield makes you slower, which is realistic  because it is quite cumbersome.
if you want to be a bit faster than a 2h with a similar level, then you need more ath or lighter equipment.
 

Quote
-Axes are made to counter shield. A MW shield with decent (5-6) shield skill doesnt go down in a couple of hits, even vs axes.
2h axes need three swings to destroy my shield. if i would use more points in shield skill (like 10) than this would be four hits or i would invest nearly all of my points into agi and shield skill, well then it would be unbreakable.
1h axes need a bit longer, 6 to 7 hits.


Offline CrazyCracka420

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Re: 1h stab
« Reply #185 on: October 22, 2013, 06:21:12 pm »
0
On my alt with 9 agility (3 athletics) and leather armor.  I have 24 STR and 6 IF.  I'm able to negate a lot of 1h stabs still and make them glance by using proper footwork and anticipating attacks. 

I think the "problem" with stabs (1h/2h or polearm) is pretty minimal.  It could be better, but it's certainly nothing to lose your shit over, or talk about for 12 pages and multiple threads.
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Offline San

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Re: 1h stab
« Reply #186 on: October 22, 2013, 07:04:30 pm »
+4
I'm just trying to understand people's difficulties with it, and how it's so much worse than everything else in the game. I see how it's better than the other attack directions and how it can be toned down a tad, but from my perspective it seems like people are either downplaying or are oblivious to the stab weaknesses. I think the other 1h attack directions are still great.

Offline Ronin

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Re: 1h stab
« Reply #187 on: October 22, 2013, 08:47:02 pm »
0
2h axes need three swings to destroy my shield. if i would use more points in shield skill (like 10) than this would be four hits or i would invest nearly all of my points into agi and shield skill, well then it would be unbreakable.
1h axes need a bit longer, 6 to 7 hits.
It is the weakness of steel buckler. Other shields are not as weak as them versus axes.
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Offline rustyspoon

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Re: 1h stab
« Reply #188 on: October 23, 2013, 01:34:59 am »
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I nudge a lot on my 1h alt because of the free 33 pierce stab (:D), but pretty much the only guys I nudge are backpedaling. A bit risky on enemies with okay athletics who strafe a lot. How you can say you can't be nudged while backpedaling is beyond me. You can even knock them down while they backpedal, which is hilarious.

The range on nudges is incredibly short. As long as you're not in facehug range, you'll never get nudged. Most crpg players stay way too close to their opponent.
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Offline Grumbs

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Re: 1h stab
« Reply #189 on: October 23, 2013, 01:44:04 am »
+1
1 hand with shield was strong for ages. Then they got the biggest buff a melee class has got for years, ofc people will complain about it. They got weapon stat buffs recently too. It was unneeded, their other directions are good and they have the constant utility that a shield brings (block multiple directions, don't need to manual block, lack of block stun, protection from ranged without taking away their offensive capabilities). Oh and it was a big buff for ranged that play with a 1 hander (pretty much all)

If 2 hand stab is OP then nerf that, don't just get into a buff spiral where you make other weapons just as silly to compensate
« Last Edit: October 23, 2013, 01:48:18 am by Grumbs »
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Offline Akynos

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Re: 1h stab
« Reply #190 on: October 23, 2013, 01:53:05 am »
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If 2 hand stab is OP then nerf that, don't just get into a buff spiral where you make other weapons just as silly to compensate
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Offline San

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Re: 1h stab
« Reply #191 on: October 23, 2013, 03:24:03 am »
+1
Buffing things that are already strong? We're already used to this in NA.

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Shieldbreakers, mauls, smart cav, and stunning blocks are still great basic strategies. With decent athletics, I learned how to defeat most 1h stabbers I've come across. 1h (3dir) vs 1h (4dir) is not difficult by any means at least. I reckon you just need to be more careful with slower weapons, but they can stun 1h blocks.

Offline Kafein

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Re: 1h stab
« Reply #192 on: October 23, 2013, 09:43:15 am »
+2
lack of block stun

That is simply not true. Shields can get blockstunned. There's just no visual effect when it happens, which makes it even harder to spot for the victim.

If 2 hand stab is OP then nerf that, don't just get into a buff spiral where you make other weapons just as silly to compensate

I think that right now, with all stabs about equally retarded in slightly different ways, they should all be fixed simultaneously. It is undeniably more fair than before the animation revamp, but the game plays a little bit more wonky than what we were used to.


I spent already too much time ''debating'' with you guys, and despite everything you keep saying that 1h is perfectly balanced when a simple glance at the servers show it's not.

It is by all means more balanced than before the changes to animations. Do you remember many people running around with stabbing swords back then ? I sure fucking don't. Not to mention the big trend lately on EU_2 is max WM armor clad miaodao braindead spam demons.

However I understand that it is difficult to judge how broken 1h is when all the other classes are fucked up as well :D

So 1h is the only class that isn't permitted to have fucked up broken stuff ?

Note that it sure as hell seems to be the case, even in Native.

Offline Akynos

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Re: 1h stab
« Reply #193 on: October 23, 2013, 12:59:57 pm »
-1
It is by all means more balanced than before the changes to animations. Do you remember many people running around with stabbing swords back then ? I sure fucking don't. Not to mention the big trend lately on EU_2 is max WM armor clad miaodao braindead spam demons.

So 1h is the only class that isn't permitted to have fucked up broken stuff ?


Only those who knew how to stab and had a stabbing weapon used it. I know Zlisch used them. The thrusts were a bit too difficult, but it was balanced in the way that it wasn't 3 normal swings and 1 OHMAHGAWDINSTASTABLULZFLLDMGL2BN00B as we have today.

I mostly rage against 1h because 2h and polearm have got their share of the hate for a long time and have been nerfed, despite still being broken. This new 1h stab animation and the free hit nudge are a big bird-giving to everything the community has stood for.That's why.
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Offline Kafein

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Re: 1h stab
« Reply #194 on: October 23, 2013, 02:12:48 pm »
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Only those who knew how to stab and had a stabbing weapon used it. I know Zlisch used them.

Like, when was that an argument for anything. You go around saying theocrafting is bullshit then all of a sudden the hard facts are not good enough.

The thrusts were a bit too difficult, but it was balanced in the way that it wasn't 3 normal swings and 1 OHMAHGAWDINSTASTABLULZFLLDMGL2BN00B as we have today.

1h stabs with stab oriented weapons aren't any more OHMAHGAWDINSTASTABLULZFLLDMGL2BN00B than 2h stabs or polearm stabs with stab oriented weapons. Poleaxe or longsword stabs aren't bullshit ? That you seem to honestly believe this fantasy is a product of the chronologically sorry state of the 1h stab. Were it not absolutely crappy before, the situation would seem normal to everybody.

I mostly rage against 1h because 2h and polearm have got their share of the hate for a long time and have been nerfed, despite still being broken.

1h weapons got their share of nerfs too. Shields got continuously nerfed in their anti-projectile role and naturally became an increasingly useless burden in melee due to the increase in skill.

This new 1h stab animation and the free hit nudge are a big bird-giving to everything the community has stood for.That's why.

The community doesn't stand for "continuously screw 1h because they are supposed to be inferior to everything". The free hit nudge is bullshit, so what about complaining about that instead ? Complaining about the rebalancing of stab animations when it has been fucked up for ages is frankly childish.