Author Topic: Nerf Kicks  (Read 8877 times)

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Offline Phew

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Re: Nerf Kicks
« Reply #90 on: January 20, 2014, 03:19:48 pm »
+1
As others have said, it's not just that kicks are overpowered (which they are), it's that they just look stupid. Some guy pulling back his leg 90 degrees from your location causes you to stagger like you just took a bullet?

Are there some WSE2 developers of other mods that could fix the cRPG kick for us, since cmp has apparently abandoned us in favor of the new game?

Offline Leshma

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Re: Nerf Kicks
« Reply #91 on: January 20, 2014, 03:22:53 pm »
0
Quote
Kinngrimm might be a shameless lobbyist and of course his opinion is mostly disregarded because of that but at least he's moderately sane.

Oh really? He believes you're going to take over cRPG development and port it to M&B2, transferring character database so he could continue to grind to whatever level he has envisioned. Who's insane now?

Not to mention the whole quitting and coming back ordeal. I did it very quietly, only bothering Cooties to resurrect characters just like everyone else who deleted them in the past. He knew he's gonna get dick if he go to Cooties, so he went to good old Harald instead and asked for full retrieval. Not to mention that he went into fight with his old clannies, demanding to get leadership back after months of absence.

That's the problem you have, Paul. You're not able to spend as much time playing, so you lack the full picture. I barely even chat ingame now, only when I'm comfortable with friends around (insulting everything ranged doesn't count as socialization, the purpose it to share my disgust nothing more).

Back to topic: if you further nerf kicks, there will be very little what high ping players can do against the likes of kinngrimm. That is why is he lobbying so hard for it.

Offline Kafein

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Re: Nerf Kicks
« Reply #92 on: January 20, 2014, 03:30:25 pm »
0
Varadin is a native player and can block very well when he wants. Kinngrimm is just a player who abuses whatever he finds suitable. Can't block manually, have awful footwork for someone with 10 ATH, can't even feint fast enough. But yes, he kills me a lot. Mostly in gank but 1vs1 he gets in your face which combined with ping difference between him and me and famous Warband's crappy collision detection (players going through models ftw) grants him a free hit WHICH CAN'T BE BLOCKED.

If it was up to me, I would completely render his build pointless by either nerfing blunt/pierce damage of one handed weapons or simply raise STR requirement so he can't have more than 24 AGI and use pick/mace/whatever damaging.

I think there are much, much more abusable things in the game than agi 1h mace/picks. I can't understand how you can say that kinngrim abuses whatever he can when he has quite literally not changed a thing about his playstyle in years. Player collision fails are annoying for everybody and I don't believe they benefit many people except moronic DRZ 2h spammers. Varadin is really a very good blocker, way better than the average STR stacking 2h (better than me too by a long shot), but that's doesn't change the fact that I need to make him fail to block me around 7 times in a row while he only needs one to kill me. The likes of kinngrim I can kill in 3, maybe 4 good hits, while their own attacks are marginally harder to block, but way easier to dodge than Varadin's. They are also vulnerable to kicks, even the best ones (first name that comes to mind, Dalhi, wasn't even that much harder to kick than average 1h).

Maybe you should try playing with a kinngrim build for some time. Even though you might argue that playing with a shield is boring, if you never do it you can't go around telling everybody it's so easy and expect to be believed.

I think the reasoning behind nerfing kicks is that first, their mechanical effect is completely unrelated to what is shown on-screen, and as a result they are extremely hard to read. They last much longer than they should and can be dragged around, which is bullshit. Second, even the best shielders can hardly defend against it. Which makes me think the weakness of shielders against kicks is not linked to bad footwork but rather to the limitations of the class itself. If you want to be good against kicks, don't use 1h, period.

Offline Leshma

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Re: Nerf Kicks
« Reply #93 on: January 20, 2014, 03:46:02 pm »
0
I'm now enlightened, after I listened to your wise words Kafein. Decide to stop using my insta-stab, so OP, such bundle of sticks, Masterwork Awlpike. From now on I'll use underpowered Mighty Warhammer.

Offline Grumbs

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Re: Nerf Kicks
« Reply #94 on: January 20, 2014, 04:18:44 pm »
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1 handers get OP when you combo them with ranged. If you have awesome ranged potential as well as great melee weapons with randy knockdowns then you have something that could be OP. I don't think someone running around with just a warhammer is OP in itself though.

I mean if you compare someone with just a warhammer to someone with just an awlpike I wouldn't say the warhammer guy is OP. Even with a shield, you don't have the stab and shorter reach than a lot of swords. The damage and random knockdown can be a pain though and quite unrealistic.

I think the knockdown, hit, kick, kill is the real issue, and thats true for all knockdown stuff. Oh and its ridiculous how versatile ranged classes are
« Last Edit: January 20, 2014, 04:21:50 pm by Grumbs »
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Offline kinngrimm

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Re: Nerf Kicks
« Reply #95 on: January 20, 2014, 04:24:41 pm »
+1
Oh really? He believes you're going to take over cRPG development and port it to M&B2, transferring character database so he could continue to grind to whatever level he has envisioned. Who's insane now?
I was asking for people to continue the development of this mod in general not a particular person specifically. As i see it, it would be a shame not to do so, when there has already been so much effort and love put into this game. If that is insane, well then i am insane and you are the sane one who doesnt want that to happen as it seems. Differentiating , is one of the big accomplishments of human logic in my eyes, to get our perpsectives straight, you should try it at times.

Not to mention the whole quitting and coming back ordeal. I did it very quietly, only bothering Cooties to resurrect characters just like everyone else who deleted them in the past. He knew he's gonna get dick if he go to Cooties, so he went to good old Harald instead and asked for full retrieval.
Again, you asume false. I did get in touch with Cooties, while we have different opinions and stances onto several strategus based political aspects, i always had the feeling he is a as you would put it "sane" person, which responses to logic and also appart from that i see him as intelligent. So while i respect him and i hope to some extent that maybe the other way round, too  :lol: we have differances in Strategus. When i asked him about what Tenne wrote in the faction hall thread of Wolves, if that would be possible, he arranged that, which i am gratefull for. So this is but a human thing, what happend there, nothing sinister i could see at least.

Not to mention that he went into fight with his old clannies, demanding to get leadership back after months of absence.
You really are delusional you know? You had not been present for wahtever went down there and still you judge loudly, i prefer to solve and discuss these things with the people who concerns it, you are not one of those. As you but try to put mud here onto me i see myself in the need to clarify, it wasnt me who attacked in strategus a former clan friend and it was not me who ruined for 50 players 1 million XP in a fun fight where Nords as they told me later, repeatidly asked Odysseus not to kill the last remaining dude who could take up the flags again so we could continue. It was not me who started a flame thread in the forum, which in the end hurt Wolves more then myself or the new found clan Fenris. Before all of that, i didnt demand anything from Wolves, but i told them i would like to have a fief for my epen title and i would prefer the old flag over the new one, i told them what i didnt like, but in the same way as i talked openly about that, i congratulated them to their accomplishments since i was gone and i felt proud that my offsprings in a sense, that they kept going.
That later on, i quited Wolves, had been to many factors not only those i told above, there was amattor where people had been removed from the steam group, some of them now lost forever as i cant reac hthem otehrwise(some of those i were abel to recover and are now part of Fenris) and a again a few other things.

All this shit you havent witnessed Leshma, and you have no rigth to judge about it, if you do anyhow, well it prooves only that you bare any relation to reality and i may even concider you a douchbag

AND formost, all that shit has nothing at all to do with kicks
  :rolleyes:
....
u mad? take a chillpill or whatever other medication you normally get against your dellusions

Kinngrimm might be a shameless lobbyist and of course his opinion is mostly disregarded because of that but at least he's moderately sane.
I cant argue there, it is all a matter of opinion and perspective. I am not in the slightest hurt by this  :D as i see it wise to not listen to everything i have to say. Not because i would be allways wrong, but because i cant be always right. Too many things i may miss in my own judgment calls.
All in all, thanks Paul :) edit:(even though i asume you didnt ment it as a compliment hrhr, which i dont think it was , but also not the opposite of that)

Over and after all, for what it is worth, with the amount of playtime and the specific skills i use for my build, a build as mentioned by Kafein, which didnt change largly for a very very long time. I do like to think i have a certain perspective on shields, which when seen as that "a certain perspective", it would be helpfull to make judgement calls on the topics of shields and 1h/sh melee combat experiences.
I do try to get perpsectives for the other classes, i got a 4 gen thrower which i play now and then, i had an archer which bored be to death, while i do aknowledge that without ranged this game aswell would be boring, the same is true for any other weapon/class combination.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2014, 04:31:07 pm by kinngrimm »
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Offline Leshma

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Re: Nerf Kicks
« Reply #96 on: January 20, 2014, 05:07:04 pm »
0
I mean if you compare someone with just a warhammer to someone with just an awlpike I wouldn't say the warhammer guy is OP. Even with a shield, you don't have the stab and shorter reach than a lot of swords. The damage and random knockdown can be a pain though and quite unrealistic.

Downblock, forward, downblock, feint, attack, blocked, downblock, avoid kick, feint, attack, blocked, downblock, forward, attack, hit, knockdown, hit while on ground, win.

Pretty much every 1vs1 I had vs 2D pole players today.

Offline Kafein

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Re: Nerf Kicks
« Reply #97 on: January 20, 2014, 07:29:04 pm »
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Downblock, forward, downblock, feint, attack, blocked, downblock, avoid kick, feint, attack, blocked, downblock, forward, attack, hit, knockdown, hit while on ground, win.

Pretty much every 1vs1 I had vs 2D pole players today.

You two-hit pretty much every 2D pole player with a +3 warhammer ? Also you always knock them down first hit even though the kd chance is like 18%. I'm not saying a +3 warhammer is a bad weapon. It certainly isn't a bad 1h by any means with that damage output and ability to stab. I'm just saying that your "average" scenario is not average at all.

Offline bavvoz

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Re: Nerf Kicks
« Reply #98 on: January 20, 2014, 08:01:50 pm »
+2
Two-hitting polearmers with a warhammer is quite common actually if u take advantage of speed, held attacks and aim for the head bonuses :)

Offline Leshma

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Re: Nerf Kicks
« Reply #99 on: January 20, 2014, 08:57:54 pm »
0
You two-hit pretty much every 2D pole player with a +3 warhammer ? Also you always knock them down first hit even though the kd chance is like 18%. I'm not saying a +3 warhammer is a bad weapon. It certainly isn't a bad 1h by any means with that damage output and ability to stab. I'm just saying that your "average" scenario is not average at all.

I'll just tell you that I need 3 hits for ELS_Ogre_Mean. Rest go down in two hits (unless they have lighter armor and ton of HP).  Knockdown chance might be 18% on paper, but pretty much every held attack ended in knockdown today. With this weapon, 2D polearmers are really easy mode. I actually out-stabbed two awlpikers today (Furax and Rhekimos).

Also, MW Warhammer is my lucky charm. Had x5 for more than two hours :D

Offline Teeth

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Re: Nerf Kicks
« Reply #100 on: January 20, 2014, 09:15:37 pm »
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I always wanted to play with kinngrimm's char for a bit. I think it has huge potential that kinngrimm isn't able to extract entirely, with all due respect to kinngrimm's good performances with it, but I think in the hands of a top tier player it would wreck shit really hard. Of course many level 36 builds are extremely strong including my own level 35 build, but 4 ps, 34p with that kind of movement speed and an nearly unbreakable shield, gaaawd. Let's just say I am glad that no one else has that type of build at such a level.

Offline Phew

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Re: Nerf Kicks
« Reply #101 on: January 20, 2014, 09:36:22 pm »
+1
How the hell did this thread go from talking about the horrible kick mechanics to warhammer vs awlpike debate? You couldn't find two less similar weapons to compare.

Offline Camaris

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Re: Nerf Kicks
« Reply #102 on: January 20, 2014, 09:55:38 pm »
+1
Actually i dont support a nerf to kicks anymore.
I hate them while playing bastard sword but i think its enough with shieldbuffs.

Offline Leshma

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Re: Nerf Kicks
« Reply #103 on: January 20, 2014, 10:02:45 pm »
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How the hell did this thread go from talking about the horrible kick mechanics to warhammer vs awlpike debate? You couldn't find two less similar weapons to compare.

How many times you get kicked daily? If you get kicked often, you probably run straight to your opponents. I rarely see kicks, even from those very well armored behemoths with mauls. That's because kicking is risky in a game where everyone opens an attack with a stab.

Contrary to popular shielder whine, kicks and hiltslashes aren't common as they claim. Knockdown with one handed blunt weapons, on the other hand...

Offline kinngrimm

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Re: Nerf Kicks
« Reply #104 on: January 20, 2014, 10:08:50 pm »
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..., kicks and hiltslashes aren't common as they claim. ...
So changing them shouldn't be a big deal, as they are not used often anyways.
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