Serious 1h Stab Discussion

[Kafein]

If you really want to nerf 1h stab damage, just give one more damage to all melee weapons on all directions except 1h stabs. Since when is it not normal to 3-shot balanced builds with your most powerful attack ?

[MURDERTRON]

The 1h thrust needs a nerf, atm there is no sense in ever rightswinging if your weapon got a pointy end and is used with one hand, amassed at the amount of bullshit I'm hearing about it though.
You can't stab when the weapon is retracting, the moment it starts glancing with the current animation is right before it is at 100% reach, which is for how long I believe stabs should be able to stab, before the buff the animation was also beyond retarded, starting to glance 50-60% into the reach it gives you. Damage is only really strong on espadas, sideswords, and scots, which (besides the sideswords) will deal very low amounts of damage swinging, and even with my 31 pierce I've yet to onehit someone with decent amounts of armor on my 4ps, 181 wpf, char (cannot say the same for my 3ps godknowshowmuchwpfand10ath 2h with a katana). Stab based 1hs are still not overpowered, they went from low to top tier 1h swords, true, but they're still only equal to the great swinging swords. You can't facehug stab someone without twirling a bit, same bit you need to twirl to do it with a 2h sword, the 1h animation makes that tiny bit of twirling extremely natural though.

It's all left swings and stabs right now.  People don't even bother to feint anything else.

[Zlisch_The_Butcher]

It's all left swings overheads and stabs right now.  People don't even bother to feint anything else.

Fixed, and before it was all left swings, overheads, and rightswings for anyone who didn't use a dagger or a stabbing weapon, which at the time was about 95% of the EU 1hs.

[Matey]

Fixed, and before it was all left swings, overheads, and rightswings for anyone who didn't use a dagger or a stabbing weapon, which at the time was about 95% of the EU 1hs.

I use right swings D:

[San]

I disagree. Overhead and right swing are very good nowadays.

Ideally the nerf should either be:
Flat -1, 2 or even 3 pierce damage on all 1hs, nerfing just a few 1hs stab would be idiotic, and shit on internal balance, either nerf all the stabs or leave them all alone.

Do a completely new animation, that extends only 75% or so as much as the current one does, but keeps the same overall speed as the current anim (so that you won't glance while still stabbing and not retracting).

Slow down the time it takes to prepare the stab quite a bit, making it as powerful as now for range stabbing, but easy to spam at facehug range.

I think that the stats on the stab weapons being too good is an internal balance issue (along with spathovaklion), and once that's fixed we can focus on global changes. I believe that 1c swing should = 1p stab for a fair tradeoff. I think non-stab focused 1hs have bad enough pierce stabs that they don't need a nerf there.

I do agree that the damage dropoff at the very end of the stab isn't quick enough, but I'm unsure about how much tweaking it takes to make it perfect. I would ideally have the stab have the same reach bonus as right swing, but it would be quite risky to attack at the very end of your range. That makes it so that right swing wins at the very edge of their ranges, but a stabber can move in a little bit more for a quicker hit. I cannot say how much more range the current stab has over right swing, but stab is dominating openers for 1h.

I think the stab preparation is okay since they're supposed to be faster than 89 speed awlpikes and the like. Stab with a shortened spear and that's also lightning fast, but it has no bonus reach. It's in the stats.

[Penitent]

I think 1h stab is fine now.  Before it was borderline unusable (even with a slight damage buff).  Now it is effective, just like overhead or left swing.

There is no need to nerf.  1h now has 4 valid attack directions.  1h stabs are potent now, but they are not dominating the battlefield in any way.

[Zlisch_The_Butcher]

I disagree. Overhead and right swing are very good nowadays.
I think that the stats on the stab weapons being too good is an internal balance issue (along with spathovaklion), and once that's fixed we can focus on global changes. I believe that 1c swing should = 1p stab for a fair tradeoff. I think non-stab focused 1hs have bad enough pierce stabs that they don't need a nerf there.
If just a few weapons got nerfed internal balance would be incredibly screwy, look at your list for example, nerfing the espada leaves the scottish sword being clearly superior again, nerfing that will leave something else clearly superior/just as good at what it did while still being good at something else.
I do agree that the damage dropoff at the very end of the stab isn't quick enough, but I'm unsure about how much tweaking it takes to make it perfect. I would ideally have the stab have the same reach bonus as right swing, but it would be quite risky to attack at the very end of your range. That makes it so that right swing wins at the very edge of their ranges, but a stabber can move in a little bit more for a quicker hit. I cannot say how much more range the current stab has over right swing, but stab is dominating openers for 1h.
What? I suggested that the moment the damage drops off fits the animation realistically, but that it leaves the stab either to fast or long. The stab has (crude guess) 10 points more reach than the rightswing, of which 8 points don't glance.
I think the stab preparation is okay since they're supposed to be faster than 89 speed awlpikes and the like. Stab with a shortened spear and that's also lightning fast, but it has no bonus reach. It's in the stats.
Point is you can stab about as fast as you can leftswing or overhead, while having far more reach, and far faster than the rightswing, which has a tiny bit less reach, internal animation balance is somewhat fucked.

[Zlisch_The_Butcher]

I use right swings D:

And your weapon is a onehander with a stab and not the warhammer?

[San]

By damage dropoff, I mean the last 5-10 cm of its reach, thought I was agreeing. I can't say much about the scottish sword, but it should probably just be balanced with short arming sword, so -1 pierce. The swords I mentioned in the OP being balanced with the knightlies, italian, etc.

[Zlisch_The_Butcher]

By damage dropoff, I mean the last 5-10 cm of its reach, thought I was agreeing. I can't say much about the scottish sword, but it should probably just be balanced with short arming sword, so -1 pierce. The swords I mentioned in the OP being balanced with the knightlies, italian, etc.

Nope, I believe that on all attacks the last 5-10 cm should still deal damage, but that damage should go to zero right after it moves the final pixel towards the enemy.

[Inglorious]

I think 1h stab is fine now.  Before it was borderline unusable (even with a slight damage buff).  Now it is effective, just like overhead or left swing.

There is no need to nerf.  1h now has 4 valid attack directions.  1h stabs are potent now, but they are not dominating the battlefield in any way.

While I agree with you on most of this, I do think that one handed weapons are now the dominant weapon tier you see at the current moment.

Now, I'd go as far as to say, "Hey, it's new, people are trying their luck with the new mechanic. Gotta be the reason why we so so many, right?". But I'd be beaten to a pulp by the many people who are now finding it increasingly difficult to bully around one handers like they used to.

I like the previous suggestion in the thread of optimizing the polearm stab animation to fit the new improved one handed update. I agree if you are being out ranged by a 90 reach one hand stab while you are using a spetum, awlpike, long spear, then it's a user error and certainly not a game mechanic failure.

The quick release, I'd say is a given of the one handed tier. They are fast, they are meant to be. If you are concerned with people "aboosing" the reach as an opener, look back on pre buff to when two handers were doing that with half the complain the one hander has gotten in the past month or so. People got used to it. It was to be expected out of half of them with a stab capable two hander. Same concept goes for the one hander now; if you see a player wielding a stabbing one handed weapon, expect a feint or two, then a stab. It's to be expected!!

^

I tested this just about thirty minutes ago with my STF and another players STF. Used variants of polearms vs variants of one handers, even into the rondel dagger range. No shield was used in the test as I was going for innate range, unaffected by shield distance increase via hoplite stance.

The only time I was out done by a one hander stab variant vs my polearm stab variant, is when he would slink around my thrust effectively dodgeing or when my attack was chambered.

BUT for polearms less than 145 length, the game changes. 1/3 of the usual one handed stab weapons you see being used had the upper hand in this area. Just as the great sword stab can outrange the warspear stab, I think it's something we are all going to have to brush off the shoulder and find a new way to counter it, like any good man/woman player would do.

IF a change is to be made to the one handed weaponry AFTER everything else is weighed and measured, due to the one hand still being a nuisance, then I'd be full in well with a damage decrease.

And yes, the stab animation should not deal full damage at the very end of the animation. But, previously it was doing little to nothing.

Progress People! We're working towards it!

[CrazyCracka420]

I haven't noticed 1h stabs being OP now.  I've noticed them being actually useable and on par with a 2h stab. 

No stabs or kicks should deal damage when the animation has reached full extension and stopped moving.

That's not just 1h or 2h stab problem, overhead mauls can do the same (after they are buried in the ground), and kicks still kick you after the animation has stopped.

[Zlisch_The_Butcher]

No stabs or kicks should deal damage when the animation has reached full extension and stopped moving.

That's not just 1h or 2h stab problem, overhead mauls can do the same (after they are buried in the ground), and kicks still kick you after the animation has stopped.

Test it on two stationary people on NA_3 or something, the 1h stab still glances before being fully extended.

[Inglorious]

Test it on two stationary people on NA_3 or something, the 1h stab still glances before being fully extended.

One of the first things we did. And so, occasionally yes it happens   it still needs some possible work.

I haven't noticed 1h stabs being OP now.  I've noticed them being actually useable and on par with a 2h stab. 

I find it intriguing that people have forgotten the LOLstab of the 2h, and now completely re-coined it for 1h stab.

[pingpong]

Problem i have with these new "lolstabs" is that theyre too abusable with high wpf/agi builds, its so easy to spam 1hlolstab now its the new leftswingg only way better because pierce, theyre like awlpike pre turnspeed nerf, only better because 4d.

Solution: nerf p damage on all 1h to like low 20's , best swords might have 23 or 25 and replace 2hlolstab animation with halfsword thrust anim = game fixed.