Balancing Strength

[Jona]

I remember a person did do some acceleration tests on the arena map a few years back, but I can't find it. Without some sort of frame advance tech, it'll be difficult to get anything concrete just from personal experience. I can't really tell with just my 5ath and 8ath characters whether or not acceleration is more heavily affected. Don't have heavy armor, too.. When I had 18 weight body armor and 8ath, I still felt like my acceleration was good. With my 5ath character, anything past 13 body armor is quite slow. This is something that needs to be looked at frame by frame.

In the end, I just assume the running is close to the acceleration.

It could potentially work if you just did short-ranged sprints. Harder to analyze (need a lower percent error), but if there is less of a significant difference between armor weight at shorter distances, it can be assumed that acceleration is a key factor that is more affected by weight than maximum speed. If all the plotted lines converge to the same time when decked out in the max weight, regardless of athletics, then it sucks to be an agi build. ;)


I would carry this out, but man.. that would take a lot of effort.   

[Thomek]

if you can video with stable fps that might be a way to figure out acceleration directly. Without trying to derive it from timing runs at different lengths.

Zoom in and stand far away for most accurate results. And let the player start the run mid-frame.

[Fartface]

Well if all of the sudden you don´t get free WPP anymore alot of the lvl 32 + players will suddenly have a worthless build and QQ like mad.

[San]

if you can video with stable fps that might be a way to figure out acceleration directly. Without trying to derive it from timing runs at different lengths.

Zoom in and stand far away for most accurate results. And let the player start the run mid-frame.

I might try this out soon with multiple stf builds and record it. I believe it may still be directly tied to maximum run speed.

My focus is still on making agility builds better with just average armor. Agility builds already move great in average armor, but WM is a different story. You can wear a strength build with lighter armor and get the best of all worlds. That's what I did with my main shielder, because it was too effective not to ignore. The higher PS allowed for earlier hits at extreme angles and outswing agility builds.

Agility builds are already quite good (due to athletics) and only need a small bump to keep them in line. Toning down what strength builds can get away with for free also helps.

[MURDERTRON]

Can't you just make AGI add WPF?

[Phew]

Agree on all accounts san. Skills other than PS and athletics are just too weak right now; if you are lvl 34+, why use any build other than 30/18? Fast and hit like a truck.

Ironflesh, shield, weapon master, riding; these skill need to be more attractive options beyond just meeting item requirements or as a place for leftover points.

Is Dec 2010 here yet? Really looking forward to Weapon Master/wpf changes.

[San]

Shield sounds great in single player. So does Weapon Master (helps you gain wpf quicker along with the base amount added). But in multiplayer, shields are plentiful, so it's similar to riding giving horses more armor and health.

IF is a great throwaway skill until you directly compare it to other skills.

For melee, it's a choice of 6-7IF vs. 1Ath: allowing up to 7.5 weight more armor that would protect you better than 12-14 health. Getting negative speed bonus or moving into opponent's poor attack areas also help better than a mere ~14 extra health.

or 6-7IF vs. 1.5IF + 1PS: Killing opponents in less hits, stacks well with high base damage weapons, and you only lose 7 health.

Even 4-6 WM is worth more than a PS. Because PS doesn't scale as well with 1h weapons, I chose the former route on my main today. Switched to 18-27 0IF with good armor and I already got complaints about how many hits it takes to kill me by the 2nd map. 0IF needs to be more punishing, especially with higher strength. Even 18 strength gives me similar health to 12 strength 4IF, only 2 tiers away. 24 and higher and you get a significant power increase while still being as tanky as the playerbase, if not more.

[brockssn]

Shield sounds great in single player. So does Weapon Master (helps you gain wpf quicker along with the base amount added). But in multiplayer, shields are plentiful, so it's similar to riding giving horses more armor and health.

IF is a great throwaway skill until you directly compare it to other skills.

For melee, it's a choice of 6-7IF vs. 1Ath: allowing up to 7.5 weight more armor that would protect you better than 12-14 health. Getting negative speed bonus or moving into opponent's poor attack areas also help better than a mere ~14 extra health.

or 6-7IF vs. 1.5IF + 1PS: Killing opponents in less hits, stacks well with high base damage weapons, and you only lose 7 health.

Even 4-6 WM is worth more than a PS. Because PS doesn't scale as well with 1h weapons, I chose the former route on my main today. Switched to 18-27 0IF with good armor and I already got complaints about how many hits it takes to kill me by the 2nd map. 0IF needs to be more punishing, especially with higher strength. Even 18 strength gives me similar health to 12 strength 4IF, only 2 tiers away. 24 and higher and you get a significant power increase while still being as tanky as the playerbase, if not more.

what level are you? just wondering because at 30, 18-27 only gives you 11 skill points which seems useless, at 31 you would only have 14 which is still useless (9 ath, 5PS), 32 would get you 17 which is still inconceivable (9ath, 6PS, 2 shield), 33 would be 20 (9ath, 6PS, 5WM)? Did you miss type or do you have magical skill points? I know you have at least 4 shield, 6PS, 9ath, but saw you on a cataphract horse too so you had 5 riding as well. It just doesnt add up so I'm guessing it was a typo?

And yes if that was 0IF, I hit you with a 42 cut wep with 7PS a lot and you lived

[CrazyCracka420]

He's high level, 35 I believe.  I didn't think he had 5 riding (thought it was only 3, but that may have been before his respec)

[San]

I was 25/15 with 95 wpf in polearms. Equivalent in power to a 6 or 7PS pure lancer. 5 riding. I mostly used a rouncey in battle because it survived decently enough, only time I ever used a cataphract was strat.
Edit: On second thought, it's probably a bit more than your average 7PS pure.

I played with a 15/24 stf for a few months and a couple weeks ago respec'd my main to 18/27 with 2 shield so I have another perspective with agi builds.

[brockssn]

what level are you? just wondering because at 30, 18-27 only gives you 11 skill points which seems useless, at 31 you would only have 14 which is still useless (9 ath, 5PS), 32 would get you 17 which is still inconceivable (9ath, 6PS, 2 shield), 33 would be 20 (9ath, 6PS, 5WM)? Did you miss type or do you have magical skill points? I know you have at least 4 shield, 6PS, 9ath, but saw you on a cataphract horse too so you had 5 riding as well. It just doesnt add up so I'm guessing it was a typo?

And yes if that was 0IF, I hit you with a 42 cut wep with 7PS a lot and you lived

ah IC:

Level 36

Code: (Pure 1h+Shield) [Select]
Level:           36
Strength:        18
Agility:         27
Skill to attr:    8
Hp: 53
Ironflesh:        0
Power Strike:     6
Athletics:        9
Shield:           5
Weapon Master:    9

One Handed:     185

[Phew]

My only issue with strength is how it enables ridiculously large sweet spots, particularly with 2h animations. Duel someone like Tretter that's full strength+plate 2h;

-you use your superior agility to maneuver behind him, thinking you've set up a perfect strike
-you swing and glance, because plate
-he isn't even remotely facing you, but he swings anyway and hits for full damage because power strike

Strength builds are actually rewarded for bad footwork. Agility builds are punished for good footwork.

I'd like to see the animation sweet spot size be purely a function of weapon master or wpf, instead of raw damage. That alone would fix agility/strength balance, IMHO.

[Jona]

My only issue with strength is how it enables ridiculously large sweet spots, particularly with 2h animations. Duel someone like Tretter that's full strength+plate 2h;

-you use your superior agility to maneuver behind him, thinking you've set up a perfect strike
-you swing and glance, because plate
-he isn't even remotely facing you, but he swings anyway and hits for full damage because power strike

Strength builds are actually rewarded for bad footwork. Agility builds are punished for good footwork.

I'd like to see the animation sweet spot size be purely a function of weapon master or wpf, instead of raw damage. That alone would fix agility/strength balance, IMHO.

If anything at all would increase the sweet spot, weapon proficiency makes the most sense. However, I think it should be static and is only dependent on player skill.

[San]

Good news everyone.

I found cmp's post on the taleworlds forums about Speed and Acceleration:

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I found out a few things that can be shown in these graphs

Acceleration

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Movement Speed (I think the stuff that cmp omitted for readability is really important, so this graph doesn't really make much sense right now)

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I learned a few interesting things:

1. Weapon Length + Weight is only for max speed, but does nil for acceleration.
2. Even high equipment weight yields a decent maximum speed (They still move slower, though, so there must be more to the formula like cmp says or I made a mistake)
3. Armor reduces acceleration by a lot. (heavy = 30, medium = 20, light = 10). Above 30 should be ignored for the most part, just wanted to get it in the graph.
4. As we thought, Athletics is mostly for acceleration, but agility has a more pronounced effect on maximum speed than I thought.
**5**. Acceleration differences are more prominent at lower athletics values with diminishing returns as you get higher.

Looking at the last point, I need someone else to look this over since I've always thought the opposite.

Edit: For copy and paste purposes

Code: [Select]

agilityMod = (agility * 0.7 + athletics * 3.0 + 25.0);
weaponWeightMod = wieldedItemWeight * wieldedItemLength * 2.5;
maxSpeed = (agilityMod * 70.0 / (equippedItemsWeight + weaponWeightMod + 70.0) + 90.0) / 100.0;

agilityModAccel = (athletics / 6.0 + (agility + 2.0) / 15.0);
maxAcceleration = (agilityModAccel * 40.0 / (equippedItemsWeight + 40.0) + 1.0) * 70.0 / (equippedItemsWeight + 70.0) * 5.0;



[Tydeus]

We are still awaiting the WM rework right? Idk where Tydeus took that one..

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Actual ETA: ... do I really need to say it?

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December 2010