Author Topic: To our fellow muricans  (Read 25781 times)

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Offline Kafein

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Re: To our fellow muricans
« Reply #465 on: September 19, 2013, 03:09:04 pm »
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Fair enough, but I think "evil" would exist even without such things. In some cases altruism is a fitness advantage, and sometimes it is not. Plenty of species do horrible things even to members of the same species, I don't see why humans would be any different.

Offline Xant

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Re: To our fellow muricans
« Reply #466 on: September 19, 2013, 03:17:28 pm »
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Fair enough, but I think "evil" would exist even without such things. In some cases altruism is a fitness advantage, and sometimes it is not. Plenty of species do horrible things even to members of the same species, I don't see why humans would be any different.
Same reason plenty of species have wings and humans do not, why plenty of species have gills and humans do not... few fitness advantages are ubiquitous. Altruism, however, is relatively so.
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inclusive_fitness
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altruism_in_animals#Implications_in_evolutionary_theory

That is not to say that "evil" wouldn't exist without manipulation of some kind, only that humanity has basic core values that are encountered universally and don't only exist because of current culture.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2013, 03:24:39 pm by Xant »
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Offline Kafein

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Re: To our fellow muricans
« Reply #467 on: September 19, 2013, 03:48:20 pm »
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Same reason plenty of species have wings and humans do not, why plenty of species have gills and humans do not... few fitness advantages are ubiquitous. Altruism, however, is relatively so.
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inclusive_fitness
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altruism_in_animals#Implications_in_evolutionary_theory

Yes, some animals help each other. But is that actually what we call altruism ? Some ants bodyguard other, smaller insects because those produce flavorous food which ant literally milk from them. That and even in cases of truly selfless altruism, there is still a difference between acting altruistic and understanding the concept of altruism and applying it because it is intellectually pleasing.

That is not to say that "evil" wouldn't exist without manipulation of some kind, only that humanity has basic core values that are encountered universally and don't only exist because of current culture.

Yes, but my point was that those core values can be "easily" tricked into doing something a majority of humans from a neutral perspective would call evil. In a sense, culture by its mere existence determines what is good and what is evil because as far as I know, cultures aren't morality-neutral, there's always a part of our core values that are manipulated by culture.

Other things can also trick a human into doing evil things while thinking they are good, like mistakes in reasoning.

Offline Xant

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Re: To our fellow muricans
« Reply #468 on: September 19, 2013, 06:56:54 pm »
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Yes, some animals help each other. But is that actually what we call altruism ? Some ants bodyguard other, smaller insects because those produce flavorous food which ant literally milk from them. That and even in cases of truly selfless altruism, there is still a difference between acting altruistic and understanding the concept of altruism and applying it because it is intellectually pleasing.
Wikipedia - and with that, all the sources cited as well as many others - certainly seems to think so. I'd say it depends on the animal: I wouldn't directly compare the "altruism" of ants to the altruism of humans, if the former even deserves the term. Insects are a long way from humans, though, so it's more useful to look at closer relatives, such as apes, where the whole affair is more tortuous than is the case with ants (and other insects, for that matter).

What is the difference between acting altruistic and understanding the concept of altruism and applying it because it is intellectually pleasing? You will encounter a strange loop sooner or later with the latter and in the end it all boils down to the former.

Quote
Yes, but my point was that those core values can be "easily" tricked into doing something a majority of humans from a neutral perspective would call evil.
We are not in disagreement here. Certainly, it can be enough to simply convince someone that another person is an Enemy to get their empathy to switch off.

My points is merely that it is not quite this simple:
Quote
Most people try to be good within their own value system. This value system relies on what they know, and have been teached.
Rather, what they know and have been taught is built upon a foundation of core values, or natural inclinations, if you will. Those values can be corrupted and twisted, but that is more unusual than not: in general you will find that humanity as a whole follows a very similar set of "base rules" of morality.

Quote
In a sense, culture by its mere existence determines what is good and what is evil because as far as I know, cultures aren't morality-neutral, there's always a part of our core values that are manipulated by culture.

Other things can also trick a human into doing evil things while thinking they are good, like mistakes in reasoning
Morality is not arbitrary. A culture/religion/sect can corrupt an individuals view of "good" and "evil", but it'll only be a corruption. And always, to my knowledge, a hypocritical one, when it happens ("it is Good to do this to others, but Evil when done to me/us"). That shows there is an inherent, underlying understanding of Right and Wrong and the justification is tacked on superficially, a belief in belief.

And yes, yes they can. A mistake in reasoning or, more commonly, religion (though one could argue those are one and the same - it is much more often a question of intellectual honesty than intellectual capacity). But as already established, I don't disagree with you about that.
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Offline Kafein

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Re: To our fellow muricans
« Reply #469 on: September 20, 2013, 10:24:41 am »
+2
This thread has matured through all stages of a drama thread and is now a peaceful debate between rationalists that just ended in a intellectually meaningful way. What the fuck.

Christo help us


Offline Christo

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Re: To our fellow muricans
« Reply #470 on: September 20, 2013, 05:10:49 pm »
+2
:shocked:
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Offline Armpit_Sweat

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Re: To our fellow muricans
« Reply #471 on: January 22, 2014, 04:07:41 pm »
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Morality is not arbitrary. A culture/religion/sect can corrupt an individuals view of "good" and "evil", but it'll only be a corruption. And always, to my knowledge, a hypocritical one, when it happens ("it is Good to do this to others, but Evil when done to me/us"). That shows there is an inherent, underlying understanding of Right and Wrong and the justification is tacked on superficially, a belief in belief.

And yes, yes they can. A mistake in reasoning or, more commonly, religion (though one could argue those are one and the same - it is much more often a question of intellectual honesty than intellectual capacity). But as already established, I don't disagree with you about that.

Bah... Managed to read three co-related articles from this Eliezer Yudkowsky guy! He was not really trying to make it simple to understand :( I always get a feeling of being scammed, when i read such complex texts about simple ideas, but that is most certainly because i am too stupid to understand them. Not sure who is the intended audience for his articles, but he is not making them accessible for general public :)
 
Even so! Eliezer is not an anthropologist or psychologist, he is working on creating self-learning AI it seems. He states that we have some sort of pre-programmed morality in us, but writes nothing about it's biological/religious origins. Eliezer implies that we KNOW what he is talking about. Yeah, may be someone who is a product of western christian civilization knows right away about his, supposedly instinctive, morality, but i am not sure if Australian aboriginals, or someone from an ancient eastern civilization would necessarily agree.
 
I am still rather convinced that anything to do with moral, comes from our parents/education/culture/traditions etc. And our attitude towards the most basic stuff like murder and stealing, comes from our biological instincts, and from simple social necessity. Only someone else can judge your actions, someone else have to say - "this is good, and this is bad" before you know it.
 
Just trying to create an argument here, not that I gave this thought much time. That Eliezer guy is a brainy fuck! :D Lets keep it rolling!
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Offline Christo

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Re: To our fellow muricans
« Reply #472 on: January 22, 2014, 04:39:15 pm »
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Oh boy this thread again
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Offline pingpong

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Re: To our fellow muricans
« Reply #473 on: January 22, 2014, 05:14:13 pm »
+2
Armpits has disturbed the sleeping beast, ban he and lock thread before its too late!
« Last Edit: January 22, 2014, 05:18:20 pm by pingpong »

Offline Kafein

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Re: To our fellow muricans
« Reply #474 on: January 22, 2014, 05:58:30 pm »
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BEST THREAD


Had a good read reading my own discussion with Xant that I forgot about. Am I the only person able to have a civil conversation with him ?

And Armpit Sweat I know you are trying to create an argument but I believe most of the important ethics is shared by everybody because it has biological origins. The idea is that everybody understands right and wrong natively unless somehow impaired in the relevant zones of the brain. And that culture can only corrupt it rather than reversing or erasing it.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2014, 06:19:26 pm by Kafein »

Offline Xant

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Re: To our fellow muricans
« Reply #475 on: January 22, 2014, 06:18:40 pm »
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Even so! Eliezer is not an anthropologist or psychologist, he is working on creating self-learning AI it seems.
You do not think one has to more than dabble in both of the former to work on the latter? He's very well read in psychology. Maybe you could link to the articles you read, it could be that you started from the middle of a sequence and therefore didn't quite catch the references. He tends to write them in episodes.

http://wiki.lesswrong.com/wiki/Metaethics_sequence

The articles on morality/ethics.
Meaning lies as much
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Offline Armpit_Sweat

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Re: To our fellow muricans
« Reply #476 on: January 22, 2014, 06:48:19 pm »
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You do not think one has to more than dabble in both of the former to work on the latter? He's very well read in psychology. Maybe you could link to the articles you read, it could be that you started from the middle of a sequence and therefore didn't quite catch the references. He tends to write them in episodes.

http://wiki.lesswrong.com/wiki/Metaethics_sequence

The articles on morality/ethics.

i've read these 4 ( fallowing the highlighted links in the text ):

http://lesswrong.com/lw/t3/the_bedrock_of_morality_arbitrary/
http://lesswrong.com/lw/sb/could_anything_be_right/
http://lesswrong.com/lw/iy/my_wild_and_reckless_youth/
http://lesswrong.com/lw/iu/mysterious_answers_to_mysterious_questions/

Hard to enjoy, since it's so hard to read :) That last one, has a simple enough idea behind it, yet still, he somehow manages to make it almost unreadable...
May be i am just used to BBC/Discovery level of language and references, but then again, i have this idea, that someone really smart should be able to express himself in a simple way. We talk to dogs/cats/babies in a way they can understand, not because we are stupid, but because we are smart enough to come down to a "lower level", hope that makes sense :)
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Offline Xant

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Re: To our fellow muricans
« Reply #477 on: January 22, 2014, 06:59:30 pm »
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Those are completely random. First and second are from the same sequence but ~15 articles apart, third and fourth are both from different sequences and neither is the first article. So not too surprising he "expects you to know what he's talking about" - he's explained it already! You should read them chronologically if they don't make sense as-is.
Meaning lies as much
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Offline Turkhammer

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Re: To our fellow muricans
« Reply #478 on: January 22, 2014, 07:03:00 pm »
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I'd say the country being weary of "war" is a lot smaller problem in this case for intervention, than let's say Iranian, or Russian interests in that region.

Just my 2 cents thou

Also would Obama and co. really give two fucks about the chem attack, if Syria wouldn't have any natural resources?

What resources do they have?  That's such a hackneyed, easy, thoughtless, cynical cliche.  Syria's oil production peaked in 1996 and as of 2011 it was below it's 1989 level.  There is probably more oil in Montana shale than in all of Syria.  Governments and politicians, especially in democracies, always react to public sentiment driven by news reports.  There is always public pressure to "do something" whenever there is video of nerve gassing or starving children.  Why else did we intervene in Somalia or in the Balkans?  It certainly was not for resources. 

Besides that consideration, there are very good reasons to sanction or punish the use of chemical weapons.  Humanitarian reasons and the need to discourage future use of these weapons are important also and I'm sure that entered into Obama's opposition to Assad.

Offline Christo

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Re: To our fellow muricans
« Reply #479 on: January 22, 2014, 08:06:29 pm »
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(click to show/hide)

Good job, you are only 5 months late
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