To our fellow muricans

[Zomg]

Yes. I wasn't actually trying to object your points, but say that I feel the same.

Though, I have to say. Libya wasn't a militant Muslim country before the intervention of France and western countries. Egypt, granted was a dictatorship, was also not a militant Muslim country. And now Syria. All these regimes were secular; perhaps dictatorships, but with a decent welfare system and way-of-living. After those "liberation" attempts, they turned into something much, much more dangerous thing against western countries and US.

[Rumblood]

Not true. Most scientific progress was done during times of peace. Most scientific progress was abused for military use.

Absolutely not true. We wouldn't even be communicating with computers, you wouldn't have a cell phone, or be heating your hot pocket in a microwave without the wars that drove the underlying technology. Every innovation that came from the Apollo project would not exist as the Apollo missions would never have occurred without the Cold War. Without wars, it is very likely that we would still be flying across the ocean in planes driven by propellers. It is sad, but it is a fact that it usually takes war to get politicians to devote the money and the manpower to create the projects that led to those technical innovations.
While some civilian scientific advancements have been modified for war purposes, the opposite has been proven to be true in far more applications. War technology has been adopted for civilian purpose far more often, and you only need to look at nearly every device and material in your home to see the truth of that. It just isn't obvious to you because it isn't the form of a bullet or gun.

[AntiBlitz]

Firstly; there is no non-lethal weapons. It is called less-then-lethal; as tasers and bean-bang shotguns does cause lethal damage, even if the user is a trained professional. Taking into account that the need of anti-nuclear missile defense systems is due to Manhattan Project and the first body-armor prototypes being designed for small-arms, which, is a weapon of lethal means; saying the War actually helped the man-kind in our short to middle term past, is just stupendously funny.

Yes, you can keep arming and militarizing yourself. Have nukes, small-arms, APCs and Tanks, fighter jets and et cetera. Sure, why not? Because that worked during Cold War. Oh wait. It didn't. (And whoever is to call that the Cold War ended, Soviets dissolved, please, don't, as it had nothing to do with militarizing) But sure. We should have an another Cold War where if one side fucks up this time, we may have an awesome CoD/BF/ArmA experience.

Perhaps someone should teach me to quickscope before that happens.

lol where do you all get this knowledge its as if you knew about anything you were attempting to explain yet you dont, because you not only cannot own these things within your country but i myself was issued these items.  Oh and i apologize we dont use the terms "lethal" anymore, its deadly force.

a taser is by all means not deadly, pepper spray is not deadly, getting struck with a baton is not deadly, a sound frequency device is not deadly, a "bean bag" as you called it is not deadly, none of those things will kill you, they may cause harm, but not kill you.  If it was the case then why would they give us any of those tools to use??? 

With the creation of Flak jackets for airplane crewman down to the first body armor being used in the United States to save the lives of law enforcement, it would not have been created if not for the need in wartime.

its not stupendously funny, its fact.  The only thing funny is how all the europeans quote me like they have some sort of formal knowledge or training of what they speak of, please go back to being a student in your school, because you clearly need to learn more.

Just to add more, even medical equipment has been advanced due to war, if not for war we wouldnt have nearly the same technology to deal with amputees or gun shot wounds etc.  But then again what do i know, i was never trained to know any of this, some "scholar" in europe with a art degree would know all this though.

ANYWAYS THREADS DERAILED BACK ON TOPIC: yep Syria bad news, think euro's should handle it.  Will cost us too much, but then again we are goin to do it anyways im sure, so why are we discussing again?

[Miwiw]

Euro's should handle it? Imo things are settled, no reasons to do anything.

[Zomg]

Absolutely not true. We wouldn't even be communicating with computers, you wouldn't have a cell phone, or be heating your hot pocket in a microwave without the wars that drove the underlying technology. Every innovation that came from the Apollo project would not exist as the Apollo missions would never have occurred without the Cold War. Without wars, it is very likely that we would still be flying across the ocean in planes driven by propellers. It is sad, but it is a fact that it usually takes war to get politicians to devote the money and the manpower to create the projects that led to those technical innovations.
While some civilian scientific advancements have been modified for war purposes, the opposite has been proven to be true in far more applications. War technology has been adopted for civilian purpose far more often, and you only need to look at nearly every device and material in your home to see the truth of that. It just isn't obvious to you because it isn't the form of a bullet or gun.

I can only suggest you to learn more about Frédéric Bastiat's Ce qu'on voit et ce qu'on ne voit pas. (or just wiki it - and no, I didn't read the book as a whole, though I should)

Though what I am going to say will sound like A > B but not B < A, but please stick with me.

We have todays technology, due to the war industry. They put tremendous amounts of money into the Research and Development, because they know IT PROFITS. If Governments stop contracting such big corporations that focuses on weapons and vehicles, let it be aerial, land or naval; and actually put their R&D money into other shit, then we will have innovations that does not come from war itself.

However, we don't live in an ideal world, so that would never happen. But I hope I got my point across.

lol where do you all get this knowledge its as if you knew about anything you were attempting to explain yet you dont, because you not only cannot own these things within your country but i myself was issued these items.  Oh and i apologize we dont use the terms "lethal" anymore, its deadly force.

a taser is by all means not deadly, pepper spray is not deadly, getting struck with a baton is not deadly, a sound frequency device is not deadly, a "bean bag" as you called it is not deadly, none of those things will kill you, they may cause harm, but not kill you.  If it was the case then why would they give us any of those tools to use??? 

With the creation of Flak jackets for airplane crewman down to the first body armor being used in the United States to save the lives of law enforcement, it would not have been created if not for the need in wartime.

its not stupendously funny, its fact.  The only thing funny is how all the europeans quote me like they have some sort of formal knowledge or training of what they speak of, please go back to being a student in your school, because you clearly need to learn more.

Just to add more, even medical equipment has been advanced due to war, if not for war we wouldnt have nearly the same technology to deal with amputees or gun shot wounds etc.  But then again what do i know, i was never trained to know any of this, some "scholar" in europe with a art degree would know all this though.

ANYWAYS THREADS DERAILED BACK ON TOPIC: yep Syria bad news, think euro's should handle it.  Will cost us too much, but then again we are goin to do it anyways im sure, so why are we discussing again?

First and foremost, your lack of grammar and respect to the language gave me cancer. But hey, lets not go there.

As a person lucky enough to be properly educated from my toddler life to my youth, I learned a very, very important skill that nearly most ideological people who refuses to listen one another; reading, learning and discussing. And truth be told, I am pro-Gun ownership. I believe the right of a person to defend himself or herself at any cost, stand his grounds and fight back, if need be.

Moving on.

Taser, by all local, state and federal United States law enforcement agencies, is defined by other-then-lethal OR less-then-lethal equipment. As it can be lethal, in some cases. According to Russia Today and infowars, more then five hundred people died in the last 12 years, due to being shot by taser. Furthermore, WikiPedia, on taser safety, with citations, provide the information on the taser; and the death and permanent injuries caused by it. Also, a quick fun fact: November 2003 Las Vegas, Nevada, police officer Lisa Peterson is severely injured (including traumatic internal disc disruption and persistent dizziness) during a training exercise under controlled conditions. Under. Controlled. Conditions. During a training exercise. Yup, it is totally, hundred percent safe. (Again: I am not against the use of taser, but defining it as non-lethal is stupid and wrong)

Granted, I am amazed by the medical technology and equipment created specially for the battle injuries. Especially QuikClot, it amazes me, as well as saddens me at the same time. As we have an industry that doesn't care about saving civilian life, as it is not profitable, but get contracted by government and create such technology.

We, Europeans, or the way that I like to say it, those who has an ability to think for themselves, research and discuss, never claim to know everything, nor say we mastered a subject. Personally, I am aware that I will never be perfect. I will never know everything. I will be wrong. However, the difference between me and you is that, I am ready to learn from those mistakes and attempt to improve myself at every occasion, even if I knew I would never be that perfect.

But hey. Who the heck am I to talk about?

(And yes: I know people will try to point out my grammatical mistakes because of my first paragraph. Heh.)

[Molly]

Absolutely not true. We wouldn't even be communicating with computers, you wouldn't have a cell phone, or be heating your hot pocket in a microwave without the wars that drove the underlying technology. Every innovation that came from the Apollo project would not exist as the Apollo missions would never have occurred without the Cold War. Without wars, it is very likely that we would still be flying across the ocean in planes driven by propellers. It is sad, but it is a fact that it usually takes war to get politicians to devote the money and the manpower to create the projects that led to those technical innovations.
While some civilian scientific advancements have been modified for war purposes, the opposite has been proven to be true in far more applications. War technology has been adopted for civilian purpose far more often, and you only need to look at nearly every device and material in your home to see the truth of that. It just isn't obvious to you because it isn't the form of a bullet or gun.

That is just utter bullshit. Guess that's the kind of answers one gets when discussing things with people from a country where teacher start their working day with the gun handout...
Not even gonna try to argue with you about this. I decided I just gonna ignore you.

[Panos_]

Reading what most NA`s have to say regarding the Syria matter, makes me wish more and more for a US failure.

Muricans really believe that they live at the greatest nation of the whole world..I guess too much McDonalds and too many Pay per views had their toll.

Have fun at being the muppets of the jews, once again.

[CrazyCracka420]

Well I explained why a lot of American's hold their unintellectual views, but you being the ignorant fuck that you are, apparently didn't bother to read my post. 

[Clockworkkiller]

The person in the chair shouldn't be a civilian though, they should be our politicians/military leaders calling for bombing Syria.  Most American's have no idea what's going on in Syria.  Our media are selling a product, and people have showed with their money, they want to be entertained, not informed when they watch the news or go online.  So we are insulated and coddled in this country, with most Americans having no clue what's happening in their own cities, let alone in the next state.  So how do you expect them to know what's happening in the middle east?

I think that's a big problem here in this country, is that people are so "well off" that they feel they can tune out to politics and current events.  They don't see any real pressing need to get better politicians in our government.  They feel no real need to know what's happening in Egypt or Syria because it's not going to personally affect them.  I think that's a by product of being so "well off" that people don't even know what's going on in their own cities or states, let alone half-way across the world.  And that ignorance results in the politicians and corporations being able to essentially do whatever they want to consolidate their power and protect their interests.

its sad that a nation that has the potential to literally change the face of the world, is filled with nothing but corporate greed, political corruption and the sheeple that so blindly follow it.

Reading what most NA`s have to say regarding the Syria matter, makes me wish more and more for a US failure.

Muricans really believe that they live at the greatest nation of the whole world..I guess too much McDonalds and too many Pay per views had their toll.

Have fun at being the muppets of the jews, once again.

QQ some more

[Malaclypse]

Reading what most NA`s have to say regarding the Syria matter, makes me wish more and more for a US failure.

Muricans really believe that they live at the greatest nation of the whole world..I guess too much McDonalds and too many Pay per views had their toll.

Have fun at being the muppets of the jews, once again.

The whole system the US is a part of (and which it in no small measure served and serves to perpetuate and propagate)seems doomed to failure, and I remain optimistic that this is so. Primates such as ourselves have the ability to function most admirably and to our fullest capacity when we are under incredible states of duress or ordeal, either as individuals or as cultural entities. Things can only get worse before they get better, for better or worse, haha.

(click to show/hide)

What I perceive as authentic human values (love, cooperation, beauty, justice, honor, etc.) have, as they have time and time again during the maniacal march of our unfolding historical process (which engulfs all of us on this planet who are not living as our ancestors of the pre-historical era presumably did- nomadic lives, taking what was needed and not more as there was no place to STORE surplus anyhow, no grain tower at Jericho, etc) been suppressed and distorted by institutions which serve themselves and their continued existence primarily. This is the story we've all been operating under since the advent of agricultural and stockpiling, of government and of "the public", and to say, "it's not my national group or nation-state contributing to the trouble, it's these larval, American folk across the planet and their ilk" is unfair, if only because it's not the whole of the picture.

To be sure, there are plenty of people in this country (America) who operate under the assumption that our national identity, our nation state, our ideologies, etc. are the best ones among all possible ones. This isn't something unique to Americans. In fact it goes completely beyond the nation state and political identity.

We are all under the influence of a global cultural spell, and we can no longer call it simply western civilization or American or what have you, it has infected the majority of civilization on the Earth: We have a matter fixation. We are addicted, in different measures, to things, to extracting material resources from the planet and re-forming them to fit our demands. For someone living in equilibrium in the rainforest, this is also present, but on a much smaller scale (you might fashion a rock and a stick into a spear, for example). You're just as much complicit in this culture as I am (after all, we both either own or use computers, and presumably many other things which come from the commodity/consumer based cultural sphere we are inhabiting).

The state in which I see many operating in within this country specifically (and I cannot speak about other countries in more than a broad sense as above) is in the state of voluntary television addiction. People in this country spend 5-6 hours a day, on average, watching television, existing in a complacent, larval state of being, one which has programmed into it control and influence mechanisms which are insidious. If television were a drug, there would be outrage, tremendous outcries against it, laws passed to bar it's use. But because it's a cultural medium considerably less is made of it, and the only folk who would question it's virtues and understand that the medium is the message are intellectuals who comprise less than 5% of the population and therefore do not matter to established institutions.

[CrazyCracka420]

But if it's not a TV, it's a book.  Or gossiping with the neighbors.  Or running around chasing a ball outside.  Or watching your kids and hanging out with family.

I think the problem isn't the TV, I think the "problem" is that we're so successful, there's no need for people to stay up to date on what's happening in their own country or the rest of the world.  People are either too lazy or too exhausted at the end of the day, to give up their own free time, in order to stay informed about the world around them.  And those of us who are paying attention, have no ability to inflict real change on the system.  Corporations and people in power, want to maintain that power and the status quo no matter what the costs. 

Just talking about current events (not even talking science or other intellectual pursuits) is something a lot of modern civilization thinks is boring or not relevant.  Which is sad indeed.  But you reap what you sow (collectively) so we all get the grab our ankles at the whims of our overlords.  If we want war or not, is irrelevant to the outcome.

[Malaclypse]

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Right, people would be filling their time with other avenues of experience, that's a given (most who give up TV time allot it to computer/internet time) but the medium is also the message (as McLuhan pointed out years ago and which was ironically forgotten due in large part to his overexposure on SAID MEDIUM). When we went from a manuscript to print culture it affected how we view ourselves, other, groups of people, governments, the whole lattice of reality for tool-using primate minds. In the same way the leap from print to radio, to television, etc has shaped us at different levels, from communal to cultural all the way up to global.

One thing one has to consider when comparing television to the other activities listed is that television has certain pronounced neurological and physiological effects which are bound to the medium as much as similar effects are bound to, say, opiates. Without even getting into what is being presented on the screen (or what subjective or boundry dissolving experiences you have on heroin), the medium is affecting anyone who uses it at length. Then on top of that we have the whole pot of worms with what is actually shown on screen, what is heard, what is transmitted and received, etc.

(click to show/hide)

I think the problem is that we have defined success as being an economic state rather than a felt experience, first off. That's an incredibly damaging notion because the whole system of capital success necessitates haves and have-not categories.

I think that there really is no need to stay up to date on what is happening elsewhere in the country or the world- it can be helpful, it can be a hindrance, it can cloud your judgement or illuminate it- but that tremendous consciousness and attention should be set on our lives and the lives of those around us. The nation-state and the institutions and sensibilities it has brought into being with it has to be taken apart from the ground up, brick by brick. This is how change takes place, really, is on the small scale, on what you do in your community, on who you help and who you leave by the wayside- how you live and how you interact with your fellow humans and the planetary ecosystem. I think that's the notion that desperately needs to catch on everywhere, simultaneously, as soon as possible. Once a new consciousness emerges, even if it appears a separate, unconnected thing, it makes all the difference- everything will function as normal, business as usual, until the point where it doesn't. Many droplets make a rainstorm.

The institutions of society which presume themselves to be a hurricane force in their own right are much weaker than that, and those at the top have got to understand this or they wouldn't be clinging ever more desperately to business as usual. They have no insight, they have no imagination, they see no new solutions (for the most part) and can only continue down the madcap track they've been on. The good news is that, I feel, whether the people rise up and set fire to those edifices which serve to further dehumanize them and tear it all down to be rebuilt or whether they collapse under their own weight, it is going to happen. They are not sustainable, they are not unmovable, they are the same goo that all other epigenetic evolution is and they'll pass like the notion that the stars are crystal spheres hanging eternally in the heavens (and probably in time, that the stars are simply huge fusion reactors).

My position is to know that things will work out, without possibly understanding how they could. It will almost certainly get much more grim and appear much more hopeless than it has ever been before before it does. Reality being stranger than I can possibly suppose, I have a great deal of hope that the universe engine runs as it should, up to and including the exhortations, destruction, death and misery of some psychotic apes on an island in an infinite sea. If those apes can find a way out of the mess they're in, a path which leads to harmony, understanding, each one having what they need (food, shelter, water, community, isolation, love, sport, etc), then that's great. If they can't, then that's great too. I can only hope that if we should fail as intelligent life, if we should come so close and not make the grade, that some consciousness somewherewhen has made it. Maybe our collective offspring (AI/Machine Life) are our only reason for existing. Maybe we're simply a vector for their existence. Who knows, right?

[Kafein]

That is just utter bullshit. Guess that's the kind of answers one gets when discussing things with people from a country where teacher start their working day with the gun handout...
Not even gonna try to argue with you about this. I decided I just gonna ignore you.

It is true, no matter how you try to read history. It always was in part, but since the late 19th century research has been fueled by war efforts more than anything else. Almost everything related to transportation, computers, communication, energy and chemistry has been invented with war applications in mind, or simply funded thanks to it. Sure, some things did not emerge out of the need to be more effective at warfare, like the printing press. But it did spread "dangerous" ideas much faster too.

[AntiBlitz]

Moving on.

Taser, by all local, state and federal United States law enforcement agencies, is defined by other-then-lethal OR less-then-lethal equipment. As it can be lethal, in some cases. According to Russia Today and infowars, more then five hundred people died in the last 12 years, due to being shot by taser. Furthermore, WikiPedia, on taser safety, with citations, provide the information on the taser; and the death and permanent injuries caused by it. Also, a quick fun fact: November 2003 Las Vegas, Nevada, police officer Lisa Peterson is severely injured (including traumatic internal disc disruption and persistent dizziness) during a training exercise under controlled conditions. Under. Controlled. Conditions. During a training exercise. Yup, it is totally, hundred percent safe. (Again: I am not against the use of taser, but defining it as non-lethal is stupid and wrong)


Granted, I am amazed by the medical technology and equipment created specially for the battle injuries. Especially QuikClot, it amazes me, as well as saddens me at the same time. As we have an industry that doesn't care about saving civilian life, as it is not profitable, but get contracted by government and create such technology.

Just to note on this, idk how one could have any harm done to them by a taser, i have been trained with it, shot people with it, and have myself been shot with it.  There is no harm that can be caused by it, anything you hear about it is little more then civilian propaganda for its removal since it seems nearly unethical in use.  The taser causes no harm to a persons heart or brain whatsoever.  The only harm that could be caused  is done by you falling the hell over, which happens id say 9/10 times.

And yes quikclot is great, though expensive at nearly $50 a packet law enforcement and emergency services around the country use quikclot and other products that are similar on the public which most people do not know.

On another note,
im glad we could deepen the void between EU and NA, this was a great discussion.

[Kalam]

its sad that a nation that has the potential to literally change the face of the world, is filled with nothing but corporate greed, political corruption and the sheeple that so blindly follow it.

There's a lot like this in this thread, as there in any  RL subject thread in General Off Topic.

Dismissing millions of people like this makes you no better than those who seriously think the middle east needs to be nuked, or all muslims should be deported.

We speak in generalities because it's easier, and because specifics would take too much time. I'm not saying it's wrong, just that we have to realize this whenever we make sweeping declarations.

Bear in mind that when you only listen to one narrative from any story, you're only getting one point of view- an incomplete point of view. If we step into every discussion with this in mind, I think there's a higher chance that we come to more informed decisions as a group of people. That's why it's important to hear, read, and observe current events- and more importantly, to have friends involved in those events all over the world. You may get an incomplete picture from each story (and every one will be flawed, though some are always more imagination driven than others) but when you put them together, you have a better idea of what the picture might be- especially when you start to wonder at why people feel the things they feel, and do the things they do.

I feel that we should realize that there's almost always a better way to do just about anything, and if we would allow ourselves to constantly improve, we wouldn't be as bogged down by the situations that lead to the kind of debate the country is in now, where two uninformed (yet similar) sides essentially argue about which leader is prettier.

There's never an excuse not to improve ourselves.

BE BATMAN, AMERICA.

Addendum: Zomg, Kaolin, the active ingredient in quickclot, is now used in a wonderful face mask. Saving lives and making you prettier!