Why oh why are 2h and pole arms still OP?

[Xant]

If 4 guys attacking you only thing you can do is block with your shield.

nope

[Corrado_Decimo]

Aemalius maybe you should learn some more...

People play 2h becouse this class is strongest (easyest to play) class. Easyest way to get some kills is to grab a huge axe and start swinging.
And dont start with the olwen goretooth vicious and the scoreboard story again.


For me it's not about nerfing somebody, i just want people to admit that 2h is easymode not sword'n'broad.

2h/pole: focus on manual block, dodge ranged, footwork to not be circled and ganked, timed attacks to defeat those "hardmode" steel shielders...
in one word? EASYMODE.

sword and board: manual block... why?! RMB. ranged! dodge? naah RMB. footwork! nah... steel shield + RMB. archers left and right! huscarl shield + RMB.
this is real HARDMODE.







game is balanced. pole/2h is just a little bit faster because you don't have a 5KGs shield in the left arm. with no shield equipped, 1h and 2h speed is the same... while swinging a weapon with both arms should be faster... but for the sake of balance (and crying babes) don't buff twohanded.

[Shablagoo]

1) Two-handers and polearm players are not inherently faster as a class than one-handers. The players tend to be more experienced and just plain better players. Give Phyrex, Siiem, Jormglorm, vMega and what not a shield, and they would kick you ass too. There are just some people currently playing twohanders or polearms that are extremely skilled. This has nothing to do with class.

Ohhh, 2handers and polearm players are just inherently better.  Like that guy with a 4:1 k/d ratio who literally does nothing but run in a circle looking straight down at the ground mashing the attack button.  This guy is just an inherently better player.  And the guy with the great maul who only walks forward while doing overhand attacks.  He's just inherently better, don't you see?  The fellow in full plate armor wielding a bec, no not that guy, the other guy.  No the other guy with the bec.  Yes I realize there are 12 guys on the server with that exact loadout but I'm talking about that one guy right there by the tree.  Yes him.  The reason he's using that is he's just a better player.  He's doing it for the challenge.  As are all the other guys in that same gear.  They just want a challenge because using a 1hander and getting average scores is just too easy for him. 

I really hate that weak argument.  2handers and polearms do not appear strong because such awesome players use them.  Top players use them because they are the strongest weapons.  That's how every game in the history of gaming has worked.  This game is no different.  Nor do you have to be good to benefit from these weapons.  Polearms and 2handers have the highest skill ceiling but also the highest skill floor.  In exchange for having less room for error on defense, you gain far more room for error on offense.  This is why they're also a good newb weapon for players who tend to not block anyway.    They require significantly less aim a general need less hits to get a kill. 

[rustyspoon]

Ohhh, 2handers and polearm players are just inherently better.  Like that guy with a 4:1 k/d ratio who literally does nothing but run in a circle looking straight down at the ground mashing the attack button.  This guy is just an inherently better player.  And the guy with the great maul who only walks forward while doing overhand attacks.  He's just inherently better, don't you see?  The fellow in full plate armor wielding a bec, no not that guy, the other guy.  No the other guy with the bec.  Yes I realize there are 12 guys on the server with that exact loadout but I'm talking about that one guy right there by the tree.  Yes him.  The reason he's using that is he's just a better player.  He's doing it for the challenge.  As are all the other guys in that same gear.  They just want a challenge because using a 1hander and getting average scores is just too easy for him. 

I really hate that weak argument.  2handers and polearms do not appear strong because such awesome players use them.  Top players use them because they are the strongest weapons.  That's how every game in the history of gaming has worked.  This game is no different.  Nor do you have to be good to benefit from these weapons.  Polearms and 2handers have the highest skill ceiling but also the highest skill floor.  In exchange for having less room for error on defense, you gain far more room for error on offense.  This is why they're also a good newb weapon for players who tend to not block anyway.    They require significantly less aim a general need less hits to get a kill.

As someone who plays 1hander a lot...it IS easy mode. Granted, it's easier for a 2 hander with moderate skill to get kills on bad players than it would be for a shielder with the same skill level. That's just due to the fact that terrible players fall to spam so easily and 2 handers/pole do lots of damage. But trust me, a good shielder can very easily rip through teams. For good examples check out Man O War or Balb (though he doesn't play as much as he used to).

I also disagree that top players use 2 hand/pole because they're "best". They use them because 1h/shield is boring as hell! I have a shielder for Strategus but I usually don't like to play him 'cause shielder is sooo damn boring.

[DrKronic]

rage textwall of BS and huff puffery

seriously, build a shield with 9 PS 4 shield 4 ath 4 wm and he'll oneshot about everyone with leftswings or overheads or right swing is actually a great "long range swing" attack if u use it well, I'm actually building a dedicated one hander and at level 19 last night I was "top of the charts" with 3 to 1 and sustained 2 to 1 after that, my average on my 2hander is actually 2.5 kills per death(I level up on battle, so yea it's ok I know I'm not the best), but honestly cRPG is more than the sum of its parts..........


you can be a good "twitch" player........and not know shit about build or gear loadout for your class or skillpoint allocation/conversion.......you will lose to me

you can be good and have good equipment.......and you know what no one wins every map or every round, but their is alot to this game, the Man o War's Anti-Blitz's and Balbaroths become even more untouchable each round of this BS 1h lobbying

why feel bad about that, everyone wins sometimes, and everyone loses, people rage and try to say 2hand is still OP, bullshit man you have no experience with it then go make one, good luck, my shielder I'm building right now is actually "easier" to play, problem is makes me weak on my 2h because the block is simpler

and the ranged defense is ALWAYS overlooked, and the fact in a group of your friends you're so much safer as a shielder(just the combined effect of ranged D and omnidirectional block)


PLAY TO YOUR STRENGTHS, or die, I die to ranged constantly so I guess I ought start a thread about nerfing all ranged attacks, lobbyists win forever, chadz ought to just remove shields from the entire game and make 1h as strong as polearms

[Gorath]

and make 1h as strong as polearms

These would be called "2hers".   

[Ironclaw]

2h/pole: focus on manual block, dodge ranged, footwork to not be circled and ganked, timed attacks to defeat those "hardmode" steel shielders...
in one word? EASYMODE.

sword and board: manual block... why?! RMB. ranged! dodge? naah RMB. footwork! nah... steel shield + RMB. archers left and right! huscarl shield + RMB.
this is real HARDMODE.

corrado if i saw you running around with your morningstar you didnt block much. Not because you can't block but you simply didnt have to. You just onehitted anything in your path. I call this easymode.

Better protection agains ranged you say, maybe yes but all 2h can carrie shield as well.

Shields nerfed, archers nerfed, throwing nerfed - all those nerfs were actually buff to 2h.

[DrKronic]

These would be called "2hers".   

except they wouldn't because they don't have stun, horse rear or shield usable wpf or oneshot machinegun stab(lawlpike), fail

[v/onMega]

Kendo, once we finish our 2h builds we should go for some 1h alts and proof things with screens xD

[Spawny]

I'm level 26 on my shielder atm. 18/12 with 6 PS, 4 ath, 4 shield and 4 wm.
With a heavy board shield my shield hardly breaks, but I'm too slow to hit anyone who has even remote manual blocking skills.

Played a full evening with a MW knightly arming sword and knightly heater shield and my worst score was a 2.1:1 k/d and my best 7.8:1 k/d.
I was consistently in the top 5 on the boards, topped it or came in second in my team at map change.

After that I changed to my polearmer, level 30 21/18 build. Peasant clothing and GLB. Played it for half an hour and quit. I could just run around doing sideswings and would get killed by the first guy that could manual block. I could block his hit, but I would be too slow to counter.
BUT, I had allready made 4-5 kills by then. Most, if not all 1 hit kills. It's long enough to just jump back and swing at the same time when facing a shielder/longsword user.

What does this mean?

Nothing really.

Imo it's perfectly balanced atm. I kill 2h/polearms and get killed by them.

[Vibe]

.
.
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Imo it's perfectly balanced atm.

/thread

[Tristan]

TL;DR
1h+shield: Easy to learn, hard to master
2h+pole: medium to learn, not so hard to master
Archers: (because i need one cheap comment in this thread) Easy mode


I like that fact that my arguments are called weak. How are they different from your own? I explained my reasons with my experience (played cRPG for a year) and having played through all classes.

If people can show me a screen shots with them self doing significantly better with two-handers over 1handers with shield, I will start to believe you. Until then I will believe my own eyes.

Honestly, the way the main accusers of this thread behaves, makes me think they are small children unable to adapt towards different opponents.
In short L2P!!!!!!!

2h/pole: focus on manual block, dodge ranged, footwork to not be circled and ganked, timed attacks to defeat those "hardmode" steel shielders...
in one word? EASYMODE.

sword and board: manual block... why?! RMB. ranged! dodge? naah RMB. footwork! nah... steel shield + RMB. archers left and right! huscarl shield + RMB.
this is real HARDMODE.

I disagree somewhat here, and this might be the main reason 1handers whine. If they play like you describe they will never top the board.
As a good onehander you need as much footwork, as much awareness etc. Why?

a) You do have an autoblock, but only for a limited time and it works best against arrows what not. In truth when against a skilled no shielder, he is as good to block as your shield, which means you must feint and dance like any other player.

b) If the opponenet have any weapon that is effective against a shield, you are better of removing it and start blocking yourself.

c) A slow shield is only good if you kite enemies into friends. A faster shield lets you strike even faster than enemies.

to sum up:

As a onehnder dance dance dance. Feint feint feint. Try to get behind your oppenent, get him to strike at you and miss, and hit him afterwards. Don't be afraid not to use your shield etc. etc.

Some of the most funny moments I have had as a shielder, was when my 2h opponenet got sloppy because he thought I could only defend iwth my rmb. Friends stopped follwing him, and suddenly he was alone against me with no shield. I started blocking and him and his friends died.

Do not expect the shield to make you insta good against a skilled player.

Oh and final argument that "top players play 2h because they are stronger". Sry, but no. You will see in strat and clan battles that an equal amount of top players use different classes.

[Spawny]

TL;DR
1h+shield: Easy to learn, hard to master
2h+pole: medium to learn, not so hard to master
Archers: (because i need one cheap comment in this thread) Easy mode

My personal oppinion:

After playing 1h/shielder for over a year I used the "skip the fun" function to try every class I never played. Had some alts, but that's only 1 build.

Here's what I played:
Polearms: 21/18, 24/15, 12/27, 18/18. Managed to get roughly the same kd ratio with every build. ~2:1 at least.
2h: Same builds as polearms. Roughly the same scores ~2:1 kd
Archer: 15/21 strongbow, 30/9 Longbow (doesn't work - wpf restriction), 18/18 warbow. I can't aim. Hard to hit and hardly kill. Average kd ratio just over 1. I blame my own lack of skill
HA: strongbow HA, no melee. Can't hit shit, but I could take out some horsies every round.
Cav: Got a cav alt. Roughly 2:1-4:1 kd ratio.

My experience:
1h+shield: Easy to learn (rmb until your shield breaks), hard to master
2h+pole: Easy to learn (grab a high damage weapon and start your helicopter), hard to master
Archers: Medium to learn (aim, lead, drop), hard to master
Cavalry: Medium to learn (timing), hard to master (even better timing, never miss a thrust)

[bosco]

So, we can agree that everything is hard to master in it's own way. 

[Ironclaw]

i agree with the learning and mastering part. Point is that 2h is way more powerful than 1h.
Best way to compare 1h and 2h is in against bots in DTV. Try it out and let me know how it turned out.