Horses have no natural predators

[Overdriven]

I had an unarmoured horse take 4 heavy throwing axes (3 in the arse, 1 in the neck) to put down today...then it took another 2 to put the rider down.

3/4s of my ammo on a single kill...oh yeah!
 

To be fair hitting it in the arse is never going to do damage on this game 2 in the neck will usually do it, often one in the head. As a cavman throwing axes used to be the bane of my life in this game (not so much any more because I never see them).

[AlbaTiger]

Oh yeah I know that arse hits don't do TOO much, the more obvious problem being even if I had hit the bloody thing in the head twice it would have been half my ammo gone. It's a well known problem though hence hardly anyone throwing anymore.
 

[Overdriven]

O just to say...if you lot arguing for nerfs so that infantrymen can fight everything 1vs1 equally...then you may as well drop all the equipment and throw rocks at each other. Rather than suggesting pointless nerfs, come up with something constructive and useful. You are not going to be able to beat everything, and cavalry is your weakness. Either accept it and get used to it, or be reasonable, recognise that cavalry should be better, but perhaps is a little to OP, but come up with something constructive. Not just pointless rants about how you hate being lanced over and over.

[Bjarky]

that throwing is a total waste of time is not the cavmans fault, but the recent patch uber nerf on throwing, i have feeling that will be fixed soon though ;)

[Cheap_Shot]

Oh yeah I know that arse hits don't do TOO much, the more obvious problem being even if I had hit the bloody thing in the head twice it would have been half my ammo gone. It's a well known problem though hence hardly anyone throwing anymore.
 

I was on the duel server with Duster recently. He wore full plate and a shield on a tripple heirloomed plated charger and I took my once heirloomed 8 throwing spears and we dueled about 50 times for comedic value. I landed a lot of great hits at least but even with him standing still and just blocking with the shield it was pretty impossible. I managed to get him later on a battle map but to be fair I'd had a few dozen practice runs and it may have been wind assisted. Also it took all my ammo and I promptly died anyway. I hope someone posts the screenshots. Black and red murder horse covered in spears.

[Native_ATS]

that throwing is a total waste of time is not the cavmans fault, but the recent patch uber nerf on throwing, i have feeling that will be fixed soon though ;)

nope, just let the shitty throwers spam it more.... but then why use skill when u can spam right?

[Gorath]

Or a dehorsed cavman often doesn't stand a chance against a pure melee build.

Unless the cav is a complete pleb that fails at character building the difference between a cav and an infantry in melee stat-wise is almost completely negligable.

[Seawied]

Unless the cav is a complete pleb that fails at character building the difference between a cav and an infantry in melee stat-wise is almost completely negligable.

...except for the 5 or 6 points he has to spend in riding. That's a noticeable difference.



Cav is primarily balanced around gold... which is a shitty balancing system, since they can just grind a few rounds to afford their pony.

[Lech]

...except for the 5 or 6 points he has to spend in riding. That's a noticeable difference.



Cav is primarily balanced around gold... which is a shitty balancing system, since they can just grind a few rounds to afford their pony.

The 5 or 6 points that would go to the most useful skill in the game - ironflesh ? There is nearly no difference between cav and infantry in term of melee infantry combat.

[Overdriven]

Unless the cav is a complete pleb that fails at character building the difference between a cav and an infantry in melee stat-wise is almost completely negligable.

Depends on the build. If you're a dedicated HA or lancer, then you don't stand much chance on foot against a melee player. HA's don't have athletics, so you can't out run most melee players, neither do they have any kind of wpf in 1h/2h and lancers have all their points in polearm wpf. So unless they pick up a polearm, it's quite difficult to get kills as a downed lancer. I've seen a few people wield a lance effectively on foot, but still not well enough to beat decent melee players.

That difference in WPF allocation and lack of athletics makes a big difference on the battlefield.

I'd argue that only 1h+shield cav stands a chance on foot, and there aren't actually as many of those around and I tend to think of them as melee men who have found a horse, rather than actually dedicated cav players.

[Gorath]

Depends on the build. If you're a dedicated HA or lancer, then you don't stand much chance on foot against a melee player. HA's don't have athletics, so you can't out run most melee players, neither do they have any kind of wpf in 1h/2h and lancers have all their points in polearm wpf. So unless they pick up a polearm, it's quite difficult to get kills as a downed lancer. I've seen a few people wield a lance effectively on foot, but still not well enough to beat decent melee players.

That difference in WPF allocation and lack of athletics makes a big difference on the battlefield.

I'd argue that only 1h+shield cav stands a chance on foot, and there aren't actually as many of those around and I tend to think of them as melee men who have found a horse, rather than actually dedicated cav players.

Cav:
18/18

PS 6
Shield 5
Riding 6
Ath 6
WM 6

1h:  120
pole: 120

Infantry
18/18

IF 6
PS 6
shield 5
ath 6
wm 6

1h  120
2h  120

Both of these are characters of mine and I only post it to show that the only thing a cav sacrifices is IF.  HA's are different, but fuck HA's.  They're gay anyways.

[Dezilagel]

Depends on the build. If you're a dedicated HA or lancer, then you don't stand much chance on foot against a melee player. HA's don't have athletics, so you can't out run most melee players, neither do they have any kind of wpf in 1h/2h and lancers have all their points in polearm wpf. So unless they pick up a polearm, it's quite difficult to get kills as a downed lancer.

Why on earth do you presume lancers are forced to carry a shield? If they know how to block it won't make much difference anyways. And 160 polearm mounted is still 160 polearm, lancer can rock the GLA jst as well as any other person. (And as someone else said, "Fuck HA, they're gay anyways")

I've seen a few people wield a lance effectively on foot, but still not well enough to beat decent melee players.

Well, it's their fault then. 1. Not bringing anything but a lance. 2. Not being good enough at melee combat.

That difference in WPF allocation and lack of athletics makes a big difference on the battlefield.

What difference? The only thing you lose is IF.

I'd argue that only 1h+shield cav stands a chance on foot, and there aren't actually as many of those around and I tend to think of them as melee men who have found a horse, rather than actually dedicated cav players.

Cmon...

As for the suggestions on nerfing manoeuvrability, that's another suggestion that makes no sense. The OP (other thread) writer said it well in that dedicated horsemen know how to manage their speed. A full speed courser cannot turn, simple. I use one as a HA and I can assure you, at full speed, if a lancer cuts across me, or a pikeman appears, I cannot turn out the way fast enough. The only reason I can usually is because I very rarely ride at full speed unless to get away from enemy horsemen whilst shooting them. When it comes to killing infantry, most cavalrymen will rarely use full speed and so it appears that their manoeuvring ability is far greater than it actually is.

Poor you, not being able to instantly dodge an ambushing pikeman (supposed to be a "direct counter" to horsemen...) IF you are riding at full speed. You must have a really hard time as cav.

Why would you ride at full speed anyways? Slightly lower speeds allow you to still outrun everything not another horse by a good margin, and dodge anything showing up almost instantly (spec if you have the Arab). Plus you acceleration is so fast you can just instantly pick up speed if needed.

You play as a HA, so I dunno if you have ever seen the effects of the stupidly high maneuver horses have atm. Have you ever (as a footman!) been...?

...Bumpslashed?

...Bumplanced?

...Couched while weilding a weapon shorter than a pike?

...Unable to dodge a lance despite 8 ath? (Did they nerf ath or smth?)

...Circle-lanced? ("lollanced")

...even in a 1v1 vs a lancer on an Arab?

Get of your horse, grab a pole/2 h/shield, play a few games and come back and tell me cav maneuver is fine atm.

...Now that was a rant, but I once again want to stress this:

For me, the primary issue with horses is not that they lack effective counters, it's that their presence force upon others a very strict style of gameplay (stick together in a big blob, bring alot of pikes, bring alot of ranged...), something no other class does.

Cav needs to be balanced around the game, not the other way around.

[Lorenzo_of_Iberia]

I'd like to make a point to Dezilagel that I play as a lancer, but i'm gonna try and take a non -biased view here

I was playing on a game with a couple of other cav and such and my colleague here, Overdriven, a heavy armoured cav player and oberyn of the mercs were all trying to kill me after overdriven downed my horse. By a bit of careful play and moving towards my team mates not only did I manage to hold off the cav assault of 3 cav on me for about a minute (which in a battle of 6 is a key amount of time) but I also managed to reach my team mates, from there on my own I managed to fend off those 3 from the backs of my team mates... Now if I can do this with just a light lance and some help from a shielder I think it proves that cav is only as effective as the infantry lets them be.

You infantry want to be free from the responsibility of looking out for cav. The lack of infantry willing to play a key defensive role at the back  of the assaulting infantry who get a better k/d, is what unbalances the cav Cav is OP as long as infantry are selfish enough to all charge forward and ignore their backs To protect a group of about 6 infantry from rear assaults you need barely two polearm supporting infantry . If infantry become less selfish and organise themselves then the cav wont run amok in your backs. Same goes partly to archers who should aim for the horses... It takes maybe 2 shots to the neck, 3 to the body, one to the head of a horse to bring a cavalry player to just 1 stray infantry who can be ganged up . Archers aim for the horse and help the team, only aim for the rider if hes on a heavy horse  or if you know you can make the shot.

Conclusion : As soon as people stop caring about K/d's and more the wellfare of the team, we'll see a lot more dead horsemen on the field

[Dezilagel]

I was playing on a game with a couple of other cav and such and my colleague here, Overdriven, a heavy armoured cav player and oberyn of the mercs were all trying to kill me after overdriven downed my horse. By a bit of careful play and moving towards my team mates not only did I manage to hold off the cav assault of 3 cav on me for about a minute (which in a battle of 6 is a key amount of time) but I also managed to reach my team mates, from there on my own I managed to fend off those 3 from the backs of my team mates... Now if I can do this with just a light lance and some help from a shielder I think it proves that cav is only as effective as the infantry lets them be.

Well, using the light lance on foot (with a shield I presume), is the same thing as using a "short" pike. (i.e ur a pikeman in this scenario and not "infantry") Yes, with a pike, I too can hold off cav (not kill them, just deny them the space around me...), but it requires dedication, and comletely denies me the opportunity to play the game I want to play (melee), while I don't deny cav anything but the small circle around me (assuming they're shit at teamwork, 2 lancers vs 1 pike is a no-brainer, they can attack at the same time from diff dir or one can just dismount).

Also, the scenario you pictured is pretty much the ideal one for effective use of a pike (as the only thing you needed to do was to deny them that little area)

You infantry want to be free from the responsibility of looking out for cav.

Nowhere did I say that, I just want my awareness to actually mean smth more than a 0.5 sec pause as mr cav readies his next lollance. (thus the suggestion to reduce maneuver)

Conclusion : As soon as people stop caring about K/d's and more the wellfare of the team, we'll see a lot more dead horsemen on the field

As said, cav force upon entire teams a certain style of play, something no other class does. And that is not balance.

[22nd_King_Plazek]

Every type of troop if played well forces a certain type of play as a counter.

If there is loads of archers you need to solve that problem.
If there is loads of infantry the solution will be different.
If there is cavalry then again a different response is required.

Having to adjust your playstyle a bit to account for the composition of the enemy team is nothing unique to horsemen!

Unless your significantly outnumbered working together infantry can overcome cavalry quite easily. Same as any other class, being able to overcome any other with the right tactics and skill.