Author Topic: Possible solution for reward system - kill multiplier finally!!!  (Read 1990 times)

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Offline Joker86

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Hi there.

Me keeps text short. If don't wanna read, take penis -> knee -> fuck. Try read, looks like long text, is not. Many notes, little text.

If still too much, read from first red part to last red part. Not much. Not much.


Requirements for reward system:

- rewards good skills
- rewards teamplay
- rewards not completely dependent on the performance, to keep noobs and baddies motivated
- rewards need to be as little dependent on your team as possible
- rewards need to reflect the effort

Problem: contradicting requirements.
Solution: compromises.
Conclusion: will never be perfect.
Recommendation: lower your expectations.


First things first: this suggestion is assuming that the conquest mode is already implemented. That's why I will repeatedly refer to flags and flag areas.

Flag area: the area around a flag within you can capture it. Who would have thought it?


The system:

1. Class based.

The community will be divided into the following classes:

- 1hd/throwing + shield = Shield infantry
- throwing = Throwers (which means that throwers with shield always have two classes)
- 2hd/2hd-polearm = Heavy infantry
- Pikemen/hoplites, perhaps 2d-Polearms = Defensive Infantry
- Crushthrough infantry = Shock infantry
- archers/crossbowmen = Ranged infantry
- melee cavalry (lancers/1hd-cav/2hd-cav) = Cavalry
- ranged cavalry (Horsearchers/horsecrossbowmen/horsethrowers) = Skirmisher Cavalry


2. Area based

Some classes get kills only within a certain area around them. Which means we go back to the old system.

3. Kill based

Dead enemies grant rewards. This is again a step back to the old game. More about this later.

4. Multiplier based.

All the rewards you collect during a round are put in a "pot". At the end of the round you get a certain percentage of the pot (= multiplier), depending on manifold factors.


____________________________________________



Getting rewards:

Getting points for your pot:

All rewards are distributed by "points", and at the end of the round the points get transformed into gold and XP. As said, you collect a pot full of points during the round.

Deaths:

Whenever you get points for a killed player, your "value" (= level, generation & equipment value) is being compared with his value. The more the value of the enemy is bigger than yours, the more rewards you get. And vice versa, of course. 

Flags:

Conquering flags grants points, obviously. The less teammates and the more enemies are around that flag, the more points you receive.



Getting more out of your pot with the multiplier:

Your multiplier determines how many points you can actually get out of your pot. It is even possible to get more points than what you had in your pot.


Surviving teammates/enemies:

The more teammates and the less enemies survive the round, the bigger your multiplier. (Note that due to conquest mode you can survive the round and still lose)


Time passed:

The shorter the round lasted, the bigger the multiplier for the winner. The longer the round lasted, the bigger the multiplier for the loser. As soon as the amount of living players of the teams exceeds a certain relation, e.g. 2:1 or 3:1, the time calculation stops, to prevent useless prolonging/delaying of the round by the losers. As soon as the relation jumps back to a more challenging value, the "frozen" time gets added again, and runs on.

Flag areas:

Whenever you get points for a killed enemy or something like that and you and/or the enemy was within a flag area, the points you get for it get multiplied by a certain value.

Teamhits/teamkills:

Every teamhit lower your multiplier a bit. Every teamhit which is being reported lowers it quite a good bit. Every teamkill lowers it a lot. Note that these punishments are permanent for that map, so they are being kept from round to round!

Won rounds:

For every round you won in a row you get a higher multiplier. But unlike before, the value is much lower, it's rather something like x1.1, x1.2 and x1.3 instead of x2 x3 or x4. But the limit can be raised to something like x2 at the most.

Dying:

Once you die you still keep on getting points for killed players and other stuff, but only at a certain percentage (like 50% or the like). It's easily determined by the time you lived. ([time you lived]x1 + ([round time]-[time you lived])x0.5 for example). This multiplier can be different for the classes, depending on how likely it is to die. (So infantry will probably get a higher death multiplier than archers or cav for example)

Generation:

The generation does not directly affect your multiplier. It affects the rate at which points get transformed into gold and XP. The higher your generation, the more valuable your points are.


Motivating the classes to play "properly":

Problem with rewarding kills directly:

Now the biggest problem doing so is directly rewarding kills. It would lead to a lot of kill stealing, teamhitting and teamkilling, and would support a general attitude and behavior which is definitely not desirable.

Old class balance problems concerning infantry:

There were always a lot of complaints and lobbying in the community, concerning class balance. And usually it was either infantry complaining about ranged or infantry complaining about cavalry. This has a lot of reasons, some of those have to do with the game mode, others have to do with the general way infantry players tend to play, and others have to do with the special gameplay requirements of infantry compared to the others classes. Whatever it is, the reward system should do something about the "infantry problem".

The core point of my suggestion:


Infantry receives points for enemies which have been killed within a certain range around them. If this happened within a flag area, they get even more rewards. BUT:

Infantry does not get rewards for killing enemies themselves!

Next to this, infantry gets a higher multiplier for every other infantryman who survived the round, compared to other teammates:

Infantry should be interested in protecting their infantry colleagues.

And finally, the most interesting point of my suggestion:

Every infantry class gets a target class. You never get ANY rewards when your target class is killed, neither by you nor by your teammates!


Now what does this mean?

You are encouraged to actually protect your fellow infantry mates, instead of racking up kills. You want THEM to make the death blow, you don't want to do it yourself, because you would not get rewards for it. And you want them to survive, that's why you look after them and support them whenever you can. But as you want to kill something, too, you will focus on your target class, because you don't get rewards for it, anyway. The big advantage of this system is, that you don't get greedy for kills, because you don't lose anything if someone else kills your target class. The focus of the game is shifted from making kills to actually helping and protecting each other. I think the gameplay can only benefit from it.

Examples for target classes:

Defensive infantry targets cavalrymen and horses.
Shock infantry targets shield infantry.
Heavy infantry targets defensive infantry and eventually horses.
Throwers target shock and heavy infantry and cavalry + horses. (Probably need some multiplier assistance due to the amount of targets which grant no reward)

Shield infantry target throwers and ranged.
Shield infantry are a special case, as they also get additional rewards for surviving friendly archers and being around the flag. This is to represent the (much underestimated) importance of shields for infantry. You see it's rather meant to be a defensive class (by me).

Weak parts of my suggestion:

I don't see any other reasonable solution for archers and cavalry than to directly reward them with a higher multiplier for kills they score, and bonus rewards for their target classes, which means that ranged and skirmisher cav target melee cav, melee cav and sirmisher cav target archers and so on. In return to prevent them of going apeshit on their teammates, their punishment multipliers for teamkills and teamhits could be bigger than those for infantry.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2013, 11:30:31 am by Joker86 »
Joker makes a very good point.
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Offline peter_afca7

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Re: Possible solution for reward system - kill multiplier finally!!!
« Reply #1 on: May 13, 2013, 11:28:38 am »
+2
still too much
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Offline Joker86

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Re: Possible solution for reward system - kill multiplier finally!!!
« Reply #2 on: May 13, 2013, 11:29:32 am »
0
still too much

Read everything from the first red part to the last red part.
Joker makes a very good point.
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Offline no_rules_just_play

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Re: Possible solution for reward system - kill multiplier finally!!!
« Reply #3 on: May 13, 2013, 11:31:41 am »
+2
i dont think this is a good idea. People would not do their actual job and just try to get rewards. what if pikers didnt attack cav? what if cav didnt attack infantery?

Offline Joker86

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Re: Possible solution for reward system - kill multiplier finally!!!
« Reply #4 on: May 13, 2013, 11:34:44 am »
0
i dont think this is a good idea. People would not do their actual job and just try to get rewards. what if pikers didnt attack cav? what if cav didnt attack infantery?

They would. Because in the end people do want kills, and they will kill someone who is attacking them, anyway. I don't think people will give a big fuck about the rewards for those two or three enemies they kill per round. It's just a means to influence them a bit. It won't fix everything.
Joker makes a very good point.
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Offline Vibe

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Re: Possible solution for reward system - kill multiplier finally!!!
« Reply #5 on: May 13, 2013, 11:39:46 am »
+5
dumb 0/10

forcing pubs to teamwork via the score system

taking away freedom of gameplay

introducing a single metagame
« Last Edit: May 13, 2013, 11:44:51 am by Vibe »

Offline Joker86

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Re: Possible solution for reward system - kill multiplier finally!!!
« Reply #6 on: May 13, 2013, 11:49:30 am »
+1
dumb 0/10

forcing pubs to teamwork via the score system

taking away freedom of gameplay

introducing a single metagame

It's not forcing. It's... "motivating"... how many kills do you score per round? If you kill them yourself, without getting a reward for them, how much will this hurt you? Compared to all those enemies who die around you and actually give your rewards?

And yes, you have to force pubs for teamplay, otherwise the gameplay will always by as plain as it is now, and cavalry and archers will always have to stay as they are right now: gimped.

And what do you mean with introducing a single metagame?  :?
Joker makes a very good point.
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Offline Vibe

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Re: Possible solution for reward system - kill multiplier finally!!!
« Reply #7 on: May 13, 2013, 11:59:14 am »
0
It's not forcing. It's... "motivating"... how many kills do you score per round? If you kill them yourself, without getting a reward for them, how much will this hurt you? Compared to all those enemies who die around you and actually give your rewards?

And yes, you have to force pubs for teamplay, otherwise the gameplay will always by as plain as it is now, and cavalry and archers will always have to stay as they are right now: gimped.

And what do you mean with introducing a single metagame?  :?

No, you do not just force pubs to teamplay. It's their choice whether they want to teamplay or go fuck around and be a rambo. Their choice - if they want to teamplay, they go find a clan that uses voice com and does teamplay. Why should you punish the way they want to play the game?  Why should you kill the melee assassins which specialize in kills for example? With this you're punishing certain gameplay styles to focus completely on teamwork. Newsflash - not everyone wants to teamwork. Some just want to get in and mindlessly hack and slash away at people. It's their loss already if they didn't protect their archers and shit like that with losing a round. But punishing certain playstyles is punishing fun and linearizing gameplay.

You are introducing a single metagame because you're defining roles for each class - what each class should be doing to max their points. Anything done out of that job is penalized by not getting/getting less points.


Offline Molly

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Re: Possible solution for reward system - kill multiplier finally!!!
« Reply #8 on: May 13, 2013, 12:01:15 pm »
+3
Kinda pointless suggestion since there is no conquest mode. Not to mention that this sounds like an idiotic amount of work for the devs which are kinda busy with other things, I figure.


I enjoy my battle server as it is. The score table is okay, I guess... maybe ranged is kinda screwed but then again I think it`s deserved considering it's... ranged.
Multi-system is kinda boring but it does its job and valour has always been garbage imho.

Let's just play.
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Offline Ronin

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Re: Possible solution for reward system - kill multiplier finally!!!
« Reply #9 on: May 13, 2013, 12:12:35 pm »
0
No, you do not just force pubs to teamplay. It's their choice whether they want to teamplay or go fuck around and be a rambo. Their choice - if they want to teamplay, they go find a clan that uses voice com and does teamplay. Why should you punish the way they want to play the game?  Why should you kill the melee assassins which specialize in kills for example? With this you're punishing certain gameplay styles to focus completely on teamwork. Newsflash - not everyone wants to teamwork. Some just want to get in and mindlessly hack and slash away at people.
Yes, at least half of the team chooses to go rambo.
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Offline Joker86

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Re: Possible solution for reward system - kill multiplier finally!!!
« Reply #10 on: May 13, 2013, 12:36:32 pm »
+1
No, you do not just force pubs to teamplay. It's their choice whether they want to teamplay or go fuck around and be a rambo. Their choice - if they want to teamplay, they go find a clan that uses voice com and does teamplay. Why should you punish the way they want to play the game?  Why should you kill the melee assassins which specialize in kills for example? With this you're punishing certain gameplay styles to focus completely on teamwork. Newsflash - not everyone wants to teamwork. Some just want to get in and mindlessly hack and slash away at people. It's their loss already if they didn't protect their archers and shit like that with losing a round. But punishing certain playstyles is punishing fun and linearizing gameplay.

You are introducing a single metagame because you're defining roles for each class - what each class should be doing to max their points. Anything done out of that job is penalized by not getting/getting less points.

There are enough other games which are rewarding team play as well. You present it like you can't make a game where cooperation is rewarded, because it limits freedom. A game is always a set of rules players agree to stick to, nothing more and nothing less.

People are free to go the mindless hack and slay way, and they won't be punished too much for this (actually they don't get punished, they just don't get rewarded. Seems like hairsplitting, but is a huge difference in matters of gameplay and motivation). But if other players tend to also look for the team and use their brain, they should get rewarded for doing "more". Because I could turn your argument against you and say the current game limits the players on only playing on the "skill" level, and not even considering tactics. Why should a reward system punish(not reward) people who use tactics? Punishing certain playstyles is punishing fun and linearizing gameplay to hack and slay.

See how this works?

Currently doing more than the brainless minimum is not being rewarded at all. With my suggestion, you would be (roughly) rewarded according to the effort you put into the game and the amount you help other players. It's not forcing certain playstyles, it's simply rewarding people if they maximize their efforts and do the right things. And yes, it's the loss of the autowalker-lemming-rambos if they don't protect their archers and so on, but it's also the loss of those people who try. And they suffer from those people as much as those people do themselves. This can't be!

And what the fuck are melee assassins who specialize in kills? Who does NOT specialize on kills these days? Those few support players with pikes, lurking around at the flanks? But that's it already, the entire rest of the player base sees themselves as melee assassins with the only purpose of racking up kills.
Joker makes a very good point.
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Offline Vibe

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Re: Possible solution for reward system - kill multiplier finally!!!
« Reply #11 on: May 13, 2013, 12:47:22 pm »
0
There are enough other games which are rewarding team play as well. You present it like you can't make a game where cooperation is rewarded, because it limits freedom. A game is always a set of rules players agree to stick to, nothing more and nothing less.

Game can very well be made with cooperation/teamwork in mind, but your idea is punishing freedom for teamwork.


People are free to go the mindless hack and slay way, and they won't be punished too much for this (actually they don't get punished, they just don't get rewarded. Seems like hairsplitting, but is a huge difference in matters of gameplay and motivation). But if other players tend to also look for the team and use their brain, they should get rewarded for doing "more". Because I could turn your argument against you and say the current game limits the players on only playing on the "skill" level, and not even considering tactics. Why should a reward system punish(not reward) people who use tactics? Punishing certain playstyles is punishing fun and linearizing gameplay to hack and slay.

See how this works?

The system does not punish people who use tactics, what kind of horse shit is this. Clans that use teamwork and tactics win rounds. Last I checked winning rounds gave you multi.


Currently doing more than the brainless minimum is not being rewarded at all. With my suggestion, you would be (roughly) rewarded according to the effort you put into the game and the amount you help other players. It's not forcing certain playstyles, it's simply rewarding people if they maximize their efforts and do the right things. And yes, it's the loss of the autowalker-lemming-rambos if they don't protect their archers and so on, but it's also the loss of those people who try. And they suffer from those people as much as those people do themselves. This can't be!

And what the fuck are melee assassins who specialize in kills? Who does NOT specialize on kills these days? Those few support players with pikes, lurking around at the flanks? But that's it already, the entire rest of the player base sees themselves as melee assassins with the only purpose of racking up kills.

I'm not against rewarding support, but like I said, you're also penalizing other playstyles with this.

Offline FRANK_THE_TANK

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Re: Possible solution for reward system - kill multiplier finally!!!
« Reply #12 on: May 13, 2013, 12:56:02 pm »
0
Fuck it all to shit bags!!!

I say all battles should operate on strat like xp!

TO THE XP BARN!

That way all those plate crutches would be loved by all.

NOW MAKE THE XP FLOW!
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Offline Joker86

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Re: Possible solution for reward system - kill multiplier finally!!!
« Reply #13 on: May 13, 2013, 01:02:34 pm »
+1
Game can very well be made with cooperation/teamwork in mind, but your idea is punishing freedom for teamwork.

Either you reward cooperating (= do not reward missing cooperation) or you do not. There is no way to reward cooperation and NOT punish missing cooperation. I am not punishing freedom, because what you call freedom is actually only the freedom to not play the whole game and only focus on a certain aspect. That's nothing I'd call worth preserving.

Because actually we are not talking about two different playstyles, like style A and style B, we are talking about playing "more" or "less", because hack and slay is only a part of tactical gameplay. It's not like tactics removed the need to kill people. Currently the game is only rewarding like up to 60% effort. If people also want to apply teamwork, which would raise the effort over 60% (=60%+), they would not get rewarded more for it, compared to the 60%- people.

You want to kill people? Fine, here is the reward proportional to your effort. You want to kill people and do it the smart way? Well, then you deserve more rewards. Here you are.

I don't see anything wrong or limiting with it. It's like complaining that people who go to work earn more than people who are on welfare. Because it limits people's freedom to only be on welfare. (Let's assume in this example that they have the choice). Who does more gets more, who does less gets less.


The system does not punish people who use tactics, what kind of horse shit is this. Clans that use teamwork and tactics win rounds. Last I checked winning rounds gave you multi.

That is right. But those people who are in the team of that clan but did NOT participate in teamplay get those rewards, too, and this is unfair. Individual rewards are the way to go. Everyone should be rewarded according to his effort.
Joker makes a very good point.
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Offline Moncho

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Re: Possible solution for reward system - kill multiplier finally!!!
« Reply #14 on: May 13, 2013, 01:07:39 pm »
0
One thing your idea would kill is flanking agi shielders. When I play one, all I do is get away from the big groups, dodge cav, and pray for somewhere to hide. Then, when the forces are engaged, I go up to the enemy archers' backs and kill 3-4 before they realise.

With your system, I would get a grand total of 0 points, even if my team defeats the enemies very fast, since a shielder killing archers would not get any points at all, which makes no sense whatsoever (same as a pikeman killing cav would not either)...

Other than that, there are a few good points in there, but I doubt anything will ever happen.