UK in or out of the EU?

[Molly]

Personally, I have the most issues with all the money flowing out of my country. Which supports your "everyone thinks about themselves first" but that's just the human nature, isnt it? Nature in general, really.

Most money inside the EU comes from Germany. I don't have the exact numbers but it's even a lot more than France is giving but the problem for is that I don't see any benefit from it.
Everywhere you go in Germany, you will find something that needs a lot of money badly. Schools, Universities, libraries and every single social institution. And all you hear is "We don't have the money." while you listen the the news telling you that again Millions and Billions are going into some European country that I couldn't care less about.

All fun and jokes with Panos aside, I do have sympathy for the needs and problems of the Greek people, or Portugal, or Spain, or Slovenia, or Rumanian, or Bulgaria, or Croatia. I really do... I belong to the minority here that says in every discussion about some poor Rumanian bugger looking for work here, that I can understand him and there is no reason to blame him for anything.
It's not easy to maintain this view when you go to my University and see rooms which havent been modernized since 1978, with crappy gear inside and dirt everywhere...


...but at the end of the day, I don't really care about any EU politics. I can't change the politics of my own country if the masses are still stupid and follow like sheep, I sure can't change the EU politics... all I can do is to get myself to a state where I have the luxury to just not give a toss.

[Moncho]

First of all, I am a EU (Spanish) citizen living and studying at university in the UK for the last 3 years.

Now my views:

On the EU: The EU is a great idea not executed in the best possible way, a way to unite and remain competitive in an ever more globalising world.
Its original intent was to be a way of trying to prevent huge disasters like WWII happening again within its reach by mixing the populations up. If you stay in a small place your entire life, you are going to be sceptic if not afraid of people from far away, which causes xenophobia, racism, etc, while travelling and knowing other people leads to understanding and reduction of the former (if you have family or friends in state X, you are less likely to want to go to war against state X for example). And by trading (ECSC originally, any coincidences with who the EU leaders currently are?), first steps were done towards this goal. Then this grew ever more by trying to expand to most of Europe, which I can understand from the people requesting it, but causes loads of problems since there are issues like nationalisms and egos that come into play a lot here. And then the economic and political union was approached. This causes many issues, for a simple reason: NATIONALISM.

When Napoleon or Rome dominated Europe, they brought many good things, but people still hated them. Why? Because my country, my homeland, my ... ARGH SO MUCH BULLSHIT. Nationalism... While many people try to unite, there are at the same time stupid nationalist movements (Scotland, Catalonia, and probably many more that I am not aware of) that try to keep people identified with small things (my region, my village, etc), which leads to homophobia and fear, and in the current situation hinders the EU a lot.
For example, in certain rural areas of Spain, there is still that feeling of "Spain, one, great, free", traditions, and many of these people would probably be against uniting more in Europe. However, in these regions many people are mostly living because of EU aids to agriculture and other areas, without those helps, they would be much poorer. Many people do not realise this, though.

Of course, another big hindrance has been the amount of institutions and bureaucracy that it has led to, for example with the 23 languages (http://ec.europa.eu/languages/languages-of-europe/eu-languages_en.htm):

    documents may be sent to EU institutions and a reply received in any of these languages
    EU regulations and other legislative documents are published in the official and working languages, as is the Official Journal


Now about the UK: The reason why the UK does not have the influence its citizens would like to have is simple: It has always been reticent to joining (did not do so until 1973, 20 years after its beginning). And when it did, it often tried to disrupt rather than help. If it had joined from the beginning, all in, it would probably have a big leading seat, and it would be France, Germany and  UK (in alphabetic order) doing most of the calls. But the UK has always doubted it (remember the Empire?), and hence could not be given more power within (imagine giving the wolf power in a sheep farm). From a European pov, the UK has always leaned more towards the US than towards the EU (even though I do not believe it personally, but many people I know do). Which is understandable, with them being your old colony and so. Oh, the jolly old times of the British Empire... (ego and nationalism coming into play yet again... how curious)

About staying or leaving, both sides have good and bad reasons, and as a complex situation, there are also people who try to use these motivations to radicalise the populace, so it needs to be handled very carefully.

Economically, joining even more closely and cooperating could, I believe, lead to even more trade and sharing, which would help in the long run, but which would require help to try and bring everywhere to a not so dissonant level first (either by dropping the poorer countries or by helping them out a lot), and this causes problems with most people who cannot see to far ahead.

Exiting it completely would lead to a strong (ish) independent country that would, however, in the long run fall behind the rest simply by the strength of numbers (less than 1% of the world's population cannot hold the power against countries with 5, 15 or 20% for very long..., it would be a bit easier if it could be increased to 500mil (EU) instead of 60mil (UK), which would bring this to 6 or 7%).

I would personally like the UK to get more involved in Europe, but I know that that is an idealist dream since I believe that a great EU could be made (though many things would need to change).

A more realistic view that I have come to realise over the past few years is that eventually it will have to decide (if the EU survives for long enough and does not disintegrate beforehand) either all in or all out, when the political union happens. I hope that the adequate steps are given to get to the right decision when it needs to be made.

and now I should probably stop procrastinating and get back to revision... Hopefully the above makes a bit of sense and I have not rambled on and on as I sometimes do.


TL;DR: I hope it stays and joins fully, and believe it would be good in the long run, but many things need to change.

[Armpit_Sweat]

Replace EU with smaller, local unions where the mindsets of the people are more compatible.

Middle European Grand Association: Austria, Benelux, France, Germany,  North Italy and maybe even Poland+Czech

Scandinavian Confederate Union of Men: Denmark, Finnland, Norway, Sweden and maybe Baltic states

Iberian and North African Nations Enterprise: Algeria, Morocco, Portugal, Spain, Tunesia

Balkan Union and Mediterran States: Ex-Yugo states, Greece, South Italy

M.E.G.A. is a winner! Imo Denmark should be re-united with Schleswig-Holstein and join MEGA club. And take back Sweden and Norway later, when they ask for it themselves. On their knees.

[Rumblood]

Interesting how this debate mirrors several states rights debates here in 'Murica over the last couple of centuries. Of course, Baberaham Lincoln settled the question of whether a state can leave the Union a long time ago. Except for Texas. Texas was the only state that previously was a country, so really the state that mirrors your debate the most. Even today there is the Texas Secede! groups that squawk around election time or when the big bad Federal guvmint is interfering with local issues.
While the differences may not seem as pronounced over here, trust me, the same issues you guys are bringing up are the same ones that have caused friction over here as well. Border states have immigration stances different from non-border states. Rich states like Texas and New York don't like propping up the poor ones. They pay more in taxes and get less in return. Labor laws that benefit one state are not so great for another. Ultra conservative states don't want abortions and gay marriage legal, while ultra liberal ones do.
Somehow we've managed to hold everyone together under one banner and I would like to think that we are better for it. It may be difficult, and you may have differences of opinion, but I think overall the EU will be better for it over the coming decades and centuries by sticking it out and resolving the differences and making it work. One day your grandkids will wonder how there ever could have been a real debate about it. Like us in the states, they will likely wonder how anyone could ever think that it would be anything other than United.

[wayyyyyne]

I want the UK out of the EU because I want Britain to be bout british

[Kafein]

I was going to produce a wall of text, but Moncho pretty much nailed the part about romanticized relations to arbitrary surfaces of land.

The EU as in everything linked to it is the difference between the middle ages and now. We got one money, we got free trade, we got unified regulations. Those three things alone make running a business anywhere in the EU several times easier and more productive than before. Another point that is rarely mentioned is "holy fuck, europe not constantly at war !!!".

The "issues" of immigration and "solidarity" (I don't like the word) are actually linked. The Union is made out of the richest countries in the world, plus ex-soviet republics. Those can't really be put together without mixing. Thing is, immigrants provide invaluable ressources to the countries they work for in the form of cheap labour, sometimes very qualified in domains usually neglected. They return home with absurd amounts of money to spend relative to the local cost of life and enrich the country at blazing speeds. The question is, would you rather have those roaring european dragons develop alone and free to do whatever they please like China ?

To try to block immigration in countries that have sound social policies (and this condition is a pretty big deal I agree) is the equivalent of climbing on someone and pushing the ceiling. That doesn't make yourself go higher.


Finally, we may be far from it now, but world government is the future. All the tools to make it work are there, it's only a matter of time. Historically, the trend in political power always has been towards centralisation and optimization, there's no reason for that to stop.

[NejStark]

From: UK
Uni education: Yes

I want us to stay in the EU.
My gf is european, most of my friends and colleagues are from europe. I want europeans and other nationalities to dilute the bigots as much as possible.

[Leshma]

It's not easy to maintain this view when you go to my University and see rooms which havent been modernized since 1978, with crappy gear inside and dirt everywhere...

Don't blame your country for that, blame the University and people who run it. I live in one of the poorest countries in Europe but University I attended has everything new and modernized thanks to good organization and priorities.

Government shouldn't give money to those who aren't capable and can't spend it well imho. You are German, you should understand that better than I do. You guys are the among the hardest working nations in history of humankind, after all.

Also, any immigrant who is working hard is good immigrant. Those lazy ones are the issue. Same goes for lazy natives. People need to realise that competition is getting better and better every day and that some day their poor skills might even be replaced by machines. Work harder, improve yourself and you'll always have a place under the sun.

Not to mention that most UK immigrants are coming from EU countries, which means that money they take home with them is still within EU borders and economy, just not in UK anymore. If you are really for EU you shouldn't have problem with that but I guess most of you aren't.

We had the similar issue in Yugoslavia but sadly, we never managed to get rid of those who weren't for the idea of one big state and "new nationality", to call it that way. In the end those people managed to ruin once very respectable country and split it into many utterly hopeless remnants.