UK in or out of the EU?

[Dezilagel]

Leave EU so we can do whatever the fuck we like with immigration, terrorists and just about everything else where our laws are concerned. Democracy is fucking pointless when there are EU 'dictators' saying we can't deport a terrorist even though the entire country wants him out because he might face an "unfair" trial, so then with our tax money we have to house, feed and protect him.  Sure things are moving ahead now via different methods but the EU has hindered his deportation and trial for so long and it has cost us tax payers a lot of money, he should have been booted out of the country long ago, he isn't our fucking problem and we don't give a toss how fair his trial is.

We also don't need any more immigrant workers, yet they continue to flood here because of EU laws, I do not blame them, I work with a couple of eastern Europeans and can see the appeal for them to come here. In many situations it's a group of them sharing a house together living on the minimums meaning that it doesn't cost them much at all to rent a house as the rent is split between them all along with other bills. They happily work for less money as it isn't costing them much to live here, in turn many employers are forcing lower wages across the board.

My father will be taking his redundancy payment in August because his depot is closing and at the new depot they want him to take a pay cut of £7.5k a year, whilst doing exactly the same job, at the same efficiency level and having to drive 2 hours a day to get to work and back, costing him a lot more money on fuel and car maintenance than now, why? because the company knows if the native population cannot afford to work for peanuts and potatoes they know the eastern Europeans can.

They also save a lot of money and send it back/take it back home, actively taking money out of our economy,  the sole reason most of them are here is to save enough money to buy a house and other luxuries back in their native countries, so they are happy to live on just the basics to survive, scraping by, as it means they save more money and are better off when they go home, whilst having put only a small amount of the money back into the economy. Certainly needs to be a solid cap on how many immigrant workers we have in the country at one time and skills should play a vital part on who we allow to work here.

Yeah, this is how I see it in my own eyes anyway, there are probably people that disagree with me but this IS how it is effecting the town I live in. Fuck the EU, we can struggle for another year but we'll be better off without them in the long run.

Sorry, but this is the kind of (imho stupid) attitude that really ticks me off, mostly because it's so prevalent.

Firstly:

Work is by definition useful; that is why we do it and why we pay people to do it. Work produces something that we want, be it wealth, welfare or whatever.
If someone performs work more efficiently, i.e the same amount of work for less money, or more work for the same amount of money, that is then more beneficial.

If the immigrant workers perform the same amount of work as the 'natives', then they are not only more attractive (which seems to be your concern), but also more useful to society as a whole.

This in turn means that if you get rid of the immigrant workers, everyone will suffer.

Say a bridge needs building, so the government sets out to build it. Building said bridge will be more efficient if the workforce includes immigrants. If the immigrants were to be removed from the equation then building the bridge will be more expensive, and it will then hurt (spoiler: everyone).

People doing good work shouldn't be punished. Besides, the whole 'they work for less, and that is bad' argument is just absurd imo.
Are women a liability to the economy because they work cheaper and thus push down wages?

The idea that the immigrants are pulling money out of the economy (...and that is bad...) is also flawed imo.

Firstly: Shouldn't people be allowed to do whatever the fuck they want with their money (within legal jurisdiction of course)? If you want to force people's money into the 'British economy', then you might as well tax it.

Secondly: There is a world economy going on. If people should not spend their money on stuff from outside the country then what? Ban tourism? Prohibit international trade? Money (money is a bad term now that I think of it, "resources" is better) spent in other countries benefit yours as well. The resources spent by the immigrants in their countries will strengthen those countries, allowing them to produce more resources for trade and profit.

As globalization increases, the spread of resources will inevitably even out as more people from countries really bad off will be able to churn out a decent chunk for themselves. Facing this reality with shortsighted isolationism will not get us anywhere, what is needed is rather a better flow of people and resources to strengthen the global economy as a whole (through the elimination of prejudice and social/cultural stigma).

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Also:

the sole reason most of them are here is to save enough money to buy a house and other luxuries back in their native countries

Seriously...?

[Belatu]

Dont leave plz  we love you   

[Leshma]

I support UK leaving, same way I support USA splitting up into individual states, UK splitting up into Scotland, North Ireland, and England, and in general just about any bigger group splitting up into smaller groups.

That's a great way to ruin a country and its economy.

[Miwiw]

Middle European Grand Association: Austria, Benelux, France, Germany,  North Italy and maybe even Poland+Czech

Epic plan. I'd vote for you. Not sure, would probably include northern countries as well, but not any southern country except for Italy.

Anyway, I'm pro EU. We must stand united !

[zagibu]

First step: hire immigrants.
Second step: move company abroad.
Third step: see company put out of business / being bought by competition from foreign country that you helped bolster in previous steps.

That's globalization for you. If you leave EU, second step will be done sooner because of shortage of immigrants. The sad thing is, we as customers could influence this by choosing products made by companies that employ local workers. But all we care about is the price.

[Andy]

Europe? That's a state right? By Ohio?

[Lt_Anders]

Interesting. Didn't know  UK was planning on leaving the EU.

I've always imagined the EU as a bigger bureaucratic mess than the US. Anytime you start taking lots of land and people and putting them under 1 rule, you get larger and larger bureaucratic messes. Will be interesting to see how it pans out.

[Leesin]

Sorry, but this is the kind of (imho stupid) attitude that really ticks me off, mostly because it's so prevalent.

Firstly:

Work is by definition useful; that is why we do it and why we pay people to do it. Work produces something that we want, be it wealth, welfare or whatever.
If someone performs work more efficiently, i.e the same amount of work for less money, or more work for the same amount of money, that is then more beneficial.

If the immigrant workers perform the same amount of work as the 'natives', then they are not only more attractive (which seems to be your concern), but also more useful to society as a whole.

This in turn means that if you get rid of the immigrant workers, everyone will suffer.

Say a bridge needs building, so the government sets out to build it. Building said bridge will be more efficient if the workforce includes immigrants. If the immigrants were to be removed from the equation then building the bridge will be more expensive, and it will then hurt (spoiler: everyone).

People doing good work shouldn't be punished. Besides, the whole 'they work for less, and that is bad' argument is just absurd imo.
Are women a liability to the economy because they work cheaper and thus push down wages?

The idea that the immigrants are pulling money out of the economy (...and that is bad...) is also flawed imo.

Firstly: Shouldn't people be allowed to do whatever the fuck they want with their money (within legal jurisdiction of course)? If you want to force people's money into the 'British economy', then you might as well tax it.

Secondly: There is a world economy going on. If people should not spend their money on stuff from outside the country then what? Ban tourism? Prohibit international trade? Money (money is a bad term now that I think of it, "resources" is better) spent in other countries benefit yours as well. The resources spent by the immigrants in their countries will strengthen those countries, allowing them to produce more resources for trade and profit.

As globalization increases, the spread of resources will inevitably even out as more people from countries really bad off will be able to churn out a decent chunk for themselves. Facing this reality with shortsighted isolationism will not get us anywhere, what is needed is rather a better flow of people and resources to strengthen the global economy as a whole (through the elimination of prejudice and social/cultural stigma).

You seemed to have missed the whole point and writing another tl;dr story is off of the agenda, I never said NO immigrant workers at all, I said there must be a limit to how many at once are allowed here. You also don't seem to understand how the immigrant workers willing to work for little money effects us in the long run, it drives the standard of living down, down to their levels of which they're living in whilst they're saving money up, so they can buy a house back "home", unlucky for us "home" is here. They don't care about scraping by living on the bare minimum, it's the whole reason they're here, the more they do it the more money they save.

Women get payed the same as men here in the common jobs you apply for, the only difference probably being higher up the ladder or in self-employed jobs where people generally try to create their own value. Do you think we pay women less?, there are women who earn more than men and vice versa, being a woman doesn't mean you only take shit low paying jobs.

All I can say is, goodbye EU, goodbye immigrants we don't really need here, welcome to immigrants who have useful skills. Come the next major elections I will be voting UKIP, if our current government doesn't change things and stop letting the EU boss us around then UKIP will when everyone gets tired and votes for them.

[Casimir]

You seemed to have missed the whole point and writing another tl;dr story is off of the agenda, I never said NO immigrant workers at all, I said there must be a limit to how many at once are allowed here. You also don't seem to understand how the immigrant workers willing to work for little money effects us in the long run, it drives the standard of living down, down to their levels of which they're living in whilst they're saving money up, so they can buy a house back "home", unlucky for us "home" is here. They don't care about scraping by living on the bare minimum, it's the whole reason they're here, the more they do it the more money they save.

Women get payed the same as men here in the common jobs you apply for, the only difference probably being higher up the ladder or in self-employed jobs where people generally try to create their own value. Do you think we pay women less?, there are women who earn more than men and vice versa, being a woman doesn't mean you only take shit low paying jobs.

All I can say is, goodbye EU, goodbye immigrants we don't really need here, welcome to immigrants who have useful skills. Come the next major elections I will be voting UKIP, if our current government doesn't change things and stop letting the EU boss us around then UKIP will when everyone gets tired and votes for them.

UKIP will only bring harm to the UK, anyone who considers them a serious political party needs to sit down and actually read their manifesto.

[Leesin]

UKIP will only bring harm to the UK, anyone who considers them a serious political party needs to sit down and actually read their manifesto.

Regardless have you seen how much the votes have swayed in their favour during these local elections, they have gained a massive amount of supporters. Why? because people are sick of the usual suspects, i.e labour, conservative, lib dems and their bullshit. Even if UKIP turned out to be bad, people won't give a shit until that happens, right now people are looking for someone else to vote for and UKIP have made themselves an easy choice when they say "Fuck the EU and have an immigration cap", people have already lost jobs and homes they have worked hard for, they would rather take the risk of exploring an alternative government as would I.

[Casimir]

i don't disagree, but do you really believe the people voting for them actually want them in government or are simply doing it as a fuck you too 'the big three'?  When it comes to general election i doubt we'll see a large slide towards UKIP, and if we do it will only bring them up to the level of lib-dems, who have been a running joke of a party for as long as it matters.

[Leesin]

i don't disagree, but do you really believe the people voting for them actually want them in government or are simply doing it as a fuck you too 'the big three'?  When it comes to general election i doubt we'll see a large slide towards UKIP, and if we do it will only bring them up to the level of lib-dems, who have been a running joke of a party for as long as it matters.

I think it's a bit of both, most voters only take note of what the parties say they're going to do, they don't read too deeply into everything, they look at the bold statements the parties say they will do, whilst at the same time they are also tired of the current government, which leads them to looking for the best alternative, UKIP presents itself as such.

 Everyone knows UKIP wants out of EU and wants to put a cap and control on immigration, which a lot of people agree with and thus they are getting the votes. Yes, they probably wont win the next general election, but they certainly will gain power. I also disagree they will just be another "lib dem", because UKIPs support will only grow the longer people are left to dislike the EU and the current lack of immigration control. It's basically in the hands of the current power house parties, if they don't do anything that convinces the general population they are making the changes the people want, then more people will vote for UKIP.

[Tennenoth]

As a member of the United Kingdom, I am half 'n' half as it were.

I am not the most well informed of people with regards to how leaving, or not, will actually effect the UK.

Remembering from College, the EU was described as a "wonderful idea but poorly implemented due to each nations own wants and desires". It doesn't seem to have the "one for all" vibe that it was sold as and in my politically aware living memory (which is roughly 5 years) the closest thing I have seen for Europe to pull together is the Euro instability garnered partly by the poor regulation of countries being allowed to associated the currency with their economy.

Each country, no matter how hard they try or state otherwise will always think of themselves first, same as each individual will almost always put themselves first. They'll always try and do what is best for their country regardless of what it does to the other ones, if it just happens to help another country then hurray, but if it'll do more harm than good to them, they're going to be against it, and rightfully so!

Anyway, I personally believe the problem to be the fact that the UK told the Euro Zone to bugger off and kept the Pound Sterling, we're invested in the Union and it has an affect on our economy but not to the same extent as each Euro using country has on each other. It also means that our influence decreases significantly compared to others because what we want won't necessarily help the Zone, you all have similar issues and will work together to fix them.

Now, I love the rest of you EU buggers and I personally like the idealistic view that we can all be a part of "Europe" but I also get the idea that we're screwing you over at times because what you want to do would screw us over, which gets us nowhere. The laws and what-not that the Union imposes are terrible in some cases, as Leesin was talking about, I cannot remember the name of the fellow, but he has been sitting in the UK for so long, eating away at our money and he isn't even our problem. It's more or less true, we wouldn't give him a second thought if he disappeared over night, we just want him out so we can spend that money fixing things that the people care about, sure its safer to keep him locked up, but he really shouldn't be costing us money, same goes for any international criminal that people happen to have locked up, but are not allowed to extradite because of the EU.

As for the governing on immigration, the Queens Speech made today says that it will be targeted. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-22437884
The "unskilled labour" sectors  (Someone give me a better term for that please, it sounds rather derogatory and I don't mean it to be, it's integral to every society) of the job market are of course highly competitive and people can't be expected to pay a high wage if there are plenty of people clamouring for the position, hence the minimum wage, it sets the level for the "standard living" costs for the most part and I personally do not care whether or not immigrants get the job, if they're here legally, can do the job and can do it well then hurray. Why they're doing that and how they're living doesn't concern me, the entitled mentality that some people seem to have that says "I'm British and therefore you should employ me over someone else" is rather backwards however I do feel that cutting peoples wages, who were previously working for a company because they know they can get cheaper labour is morally wrong, but sadly not economically or lawfully but then they expect people to want job security. It's cut-throat really.
It's the people here illegally that annoy me, because they WILL work for lower than minimum wage and they do technically steal legitimate peoples jobs, which is what needs to be targeted in my opinion, but that has nothing to do with the EU regulations so, to sum this segment up, I don't believe the EU laws on that make much of a difference. I've said it before, but I would sooner employ the better person for the job than a Brit. Even being "British" is ambiguous, this day and age it just means that you have a British passport.

I think that if the UK could leave the Union but keep the trade agreements, it'd be best for us but I don't want to leave partly due to it being all I have known.

Sorry for the wall of text, but I shall sum it up quickly;

Tenne's middle class, media indoctrinated views on the EU.
- I did an Economics and Business A level, therefore I clearly know what I am talking about, you should listen to me. (I honestly don't know what I am talking about really, but I thought I would put in my personal views)
- "All for one and one for one".
- Euro Zone vs European Union.
- I like the idea of the Union, but I don't believe it works well.
- The Queens Speech, unimportant to 99% of the world population but a thing we do anyway.
- I show that I am class orientated, damn beggars.
- Illegal immigration bad, EU appears to have little effect in my eyes (sheltered Southern attitude)

[Molly]

Well, it's not like Britain even is in the EU, really. On paper, yes, but I saw a documentation about this exact thing and it took them like 10 minutes to mention all Brit-only exceptions from EU-law.

There is no other country that has as much exception to EU-stuff than Britain, not even close. So, Britain leaving the EU won't have any impact except a psychological one. That's my rather uneducated view about this... Basicly, do as you like, I don't think it will change anything.

[Tennenoth]

Well, it's not like Britain even is in the EU, really. On paper, yes, but I saw a documentation about this exact thing and it took them like 10 minutes to mention all Brit-only exceptions from EU-law.

There is no other country that has as much exception to EU-stuff than Britain, not even close. So, Britain leaving the EU won't have any impact except a psychological one. That's my rather uneducated view about this... Basicly, do as you like, I don't think it will change anything.

Indeed, the way I see it is that we joined it because it was a good idea, then it was divided further and further and became a power block which we can't compete in, where we then fight for an exception and it's as if nothing happened. It doesn't agree with what "we" are trying to do.
I recently read that the EU wants to block a plan for the UK to give subsidies to games companies because "it would create a subsidy war" despite other countries offering larger subs (in particular France I believe who were the major influence for blocking it, I could just have read that wrong though, it was a couple of weeks ago.)

If the UK does leave, I honestly hope that there are some changes, particularly to the UK's economy.
The more I research this, which a lot of the discussions on these forums actually make me do, the more I am leaning towards leaving, my like for Europe and what it stands for isn't strong enough.
I can understand why the UK might be hated within the EU parliamentary circles though.