Author Topic: My thoughts about heavy lance  (Read 3874 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Chagan_Arslan

  • Earl
  • ******
  • Renown: 372
  • Infamy: 155
  • cRPG Player
    • View Profile
  • Faction: Great Khans
  • Game nicks: GK_Chagan_Arslan
My thoughts about heavy lance
« on: May 01, 2011, 04:46:31 pm »
0
At start i would like to say that im lancer, but ill try to be neutral and not biased about things i would like to discuss, and the thing i would like to talk about are the things im familiar with, lancer equipement and weapons we face and are killed by.

First of all im wondering why did heavy lance took so heavy nerf when it comes to speed ? now its base speed is 65, same as great lance which is heavier and with range of 230, and its even slower than long pike that is also heavier and much longer (280 range) with 68 speed ... by logic something that is heavier and longer should be slower to use ? why than heavy lance lets say used on foot is so much slower than pike and long pike both heavier and longer weapons?

Im guessing its made so that heavy lance would be strictly horseback weapon, but here comes the question, why this logic doesnt apply to pike (the anti-cav weapon) ? Why speed of pike isnt nerfed just as hard, as a matter of fact pike didnt recieve any nerf outside of req and price increase.. If devs would truly like to make it an anti-cav weapon they would decrease its speed, just so it can stop/dehorse/kill rider but not be useful as a melee weapon(as its still one of the best supporting weapons there is)

Maybe the nerf was to create more options for lancers? But if i say that strongbow is the most common choice for horse archers i wouldnt be lying, but does it automaticly means that it needs a nerf so that horse archers realize that other bows exists? And also what other options outside of pike does an anticav character has? Yes heavy lance was the mostly used weapon by lancers, but so are the other weapons by other classes! Why create diversity only for one specific class ?

Or maybe heavy lance proved to be too deadly as a melee weapon ? Widely used by cavalry players that when dehorsed almost always die, had at least a shadow of a chance to survive with it, what is now impossible even if they avoid getting killed while downed after being dehorsed.

I heard somewhere that is was reduced to lower the "Killing sprees" that was possible. Yes that make sense or does it ? Every class can do it in given the suitable situation, be it 2h/polearm used jumping into crowd slashing everything around while enemy is afraid of hitting his own teammates. Thrower throwing one projectile after another into the crowd of people. Archer/xbower shooting people climbing ladder/going uphill. Every class can do it, but cav going on a killing spree (mostly on unaware people, as aware players are so much harder to kill) is a no-no.

Or might it be unpredictable attack direction ? It got slowered so that people can block it better. Well ok im trolling here, as we all know that only block you will use against lancer is the lower block... or do we?

Wouldnt it be better to make heavy lance more expensive (around 10k?, more?) to represent its top tier status, while giving back its normal speed (nevermind the dmg nerf as almost all weapons got that) ?

So please developers be consistent with all your decisions.
If you want to screw up one weapon please do this also to its counterparts,
if you want to create weapon strictly to be used on horse, make its counterpart used strictly against horses.
If you want to make new rule, make it apply to all weapons.
Whatever you do be consistent!

Also keep in mind that currently Cavalry is only happy with what i think is less than 50% of server maps, not any other class is as affected by maps than the cavlary.

And as a fun fact you can notice that you wont find whining cavalry player about yet another infantry map that they have to dismount on, but change it to some open field map and the rage doesnt have an end.


Offline Torp

  • Knight
  • ***
  • Renown: 66
  • Infamy: 12
  • cRPG Player
  • Do evil to others before they do evil to you
    • View Profile
  • Faction: The Fallen Brigade
  • Game nicks: Fallen_Kenkyaku
  • IRC nick: Torp
Re: My thoughts about heavy lance
« Reply #1 on: May 01, 2011, 05:30:07 pm »
0
i agree on almost everything here... taht speed nerf was just too big (i also disagree with the dmg nerf now that the other lances didnt get one and i also disagree with the heirloom nerf, but nevermind)

Offline Magikarp

  • Baron
  • ****
  • Renown: 130
  • Infamy: 87
  • cRPG Player
  • Gotta splash em all!
    • View Profile
  • Faction: Merciless
  • Game nicks: Magikarp ; Merciless_Charlemagne
  • IRC nick: Magikarp
Re: My thoughts about heavy lance
« Reply #2 on: May 01, 2011, 06:33:36 pm »
0
I'm more annoyed about the damage it does now and the weak heirlooms.

Idk why the hell they nerfed the item which should be the best lance available.

Glaive didn't get nerfed, it only got more expensive, yet heavy lance got hit tremendously.

The logic of the developers has gone wild it seems. They ruined the balance that was created, the only thing wrong with the game were the throwers, lolstabbers, huscarl users and the crushtrough maces. Instead of slightly tweaking the game to perfection, they ruin the balance by buffing/nerfing classes unnecessarily.
Don't mind the fish.

Offline Toffi

  • Knight
  • ***
  • Renown: 43
  • Infamy: 9
  • cRPG Player
    • View Profile
  • Faction: Caravan Guild (Honoured Guard)
Re: My thoughts about heavy lance
« Reply #3 on: May 11, 2011, 03:00:23 pm »
0
could you please reset my heirlooms? I want to choose them again, I have chosen the heavy lance again, now got masterwork (only +1 speed) and it has a speed of 66. Normal alnce has 80 and light lance 90. so please reset my heirlooms, I dont want to use that lance anymore.

Offline Toffi

  • Knight
  • ***
  • Renown: 43
  • Infamy: 9
  • cRPG Player
    • View Profile
  • Faction: Caravan Guild (Honoured Guard)
Re: My thoughts about heavy lance
« Reply #4 on: May 11, 2011, 04:17:17 pm »
0
btw, i was "arguing" about the heavy lance about 1 hour ow on IRC, they (for example Okin, Fasader, Espu...) said some arguments like:

- "it's heavy"
---> nerf the other heavy weapons with -10 speed (swords, axes and stuff)

- "it does more damage"
---> wrong, light lance has 28 damage, heavy lance does 27 damage, heavy swords and axes do more damage then the normal weapons

- "it was the only weaponlancer chose"
Maybe the nerf was to create more options for lancers? But if i say that strongbow is the most common choice for horse archers i wouldnt be lying, but does it automaticly means that it needs a nerf so that horse archers realize that other bows exists? And also what other options outside of pike does an anticav character has? Yes heavy lance was the mostly used weapon by lancers, but so are the other weapons by other classes! Why create diversity only for one specific class ?

Suggestions:
increase speed again or increse reach further

Offline Espu

  • The good
  • Count
  • *****
  • Renown: 261
  • Infamy: 33
  • cRPG Player
    • View Profile
  • IRC nick: Espu
Re: My thoughts about heavy lance
« Reply #5 on: May 11, 2011, 04:21:07 pm »
0
btw, i was "arguing" about the heavy lance about 1 hour ow on IRC, they (for example Okin, Fasader, Espu...) said some arguments like:
[..]

Nice job leaving out the stuff that makes your view look bad, Toffi.

What the real point was:

Heavy lance: long and slow
Light lance: short and fast
Normal lance: in between light and heavy

This makes the other lances a real option, pre-patch pretty much all lancers used heavy lance.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2011, 04:23:22 pm by Vargas »

Offline Toffi

  • Knight
  • ***
  • Renown: 43
  • Infamy: 9
  • cRPG Player
    • View Profile
  • Faction: Caravan Guild (Honoured Guard)
Re: My thoughts about heavy lance
« Reply #6 on: May 11, 2011, 04:30:32 pm »
0
             damage      reach          speed
light        28             175              90
normal    27             180              80
heavy     27              190            65

so ?

it doesnt make the heavy lance an option anymore...

and pre-patch some people, as I said on IRC, used the light lance, too.

and this again:

Maybe the nerf was to create more options for lancers? But if i say that strongbow is the most common choice for horse archers i wouldnt be lying, but does it automaticly means that it needs a nerf so that horse archers realize that other bows exists? And also what other options outside of pike does an anticav character has? Yes heavy lance was the mostly used weapon by lancers, but so are the other weapons by other classes! Why create diversity only for one specific class ?

compare swords + heavy swords, for example bastard sword, and axes + heavy axes, they are all fine and didnt get -10 speed cause they are "long and heavy" and the heavy versions also have more damage!! Heavy lance only has DECREASED damage in comparison to the light version! why?
« Last Edit: May 11, 2011, 04:35:36 pm by Toffi »

Offline cmp

  • M:BG Developer
  • Supreme Overlord
  • *******
  • Renown: 2052
  • Infamy: 569
  • cRPG Player
    • View Profile
  • IRC nick: cmp
Re: My thoughts about heavy lance
« Reply #7 on: May 11, 2011, 04:37:56 pm »
0
             damage      reach          speed
light        28             175              90
normal    27             180              80
heavy     27              190            65
             damage      reach          speed
light        28             175              90
normal    27             180              80
heavy     27              190            65

Offline Toffi

  • Knight
  • ***
  • Renown: 43
  • Infamy: 9
  • cRPG Player
    • View Profile
  • Faction: Caravan Guild (Honoured Guard)
Re: My thoughts about heavy lance
« Reply #8 on: May 11, 2011, 04:51:33 pm »
0
Thank you cmpx for stating your opinion.  :rolleyes:

Offline Torp

  • Knight
  • ***
  • Renown: 66
  • Infamy: 12
  • cRPG Player
  • Do evil to others before they do evil to you
    • View Profile
  • Faction: The Fallen Brigade
  • Game nicks: Fallen_Kenkyaku
  • IRC nick: Torp
Re: My thoughts about heavy lance
« Reply #9 on: May 11, 2011, 05:01:10 pm »
0
buff speed to 70 - seems more fair imo

light - regular = +1 dmg, +5 reach, -10 speed
regular - heavy = +0 dmg, +10 reach, -10 speed

this seems more fair than the current:
+1 dmg, +5 reach, -10 speed
+0 dmg, +10 reach, -15 reach

Offline Evgen

  • Peasant
  • *
  • Renown: 7
  • Infamy: 3
  • cRPG Player
    • View Profile
  • Faction: 22nd Battalion
Re: My thoughts about heavy lance
« Reply #10 on: May 11, 2011, 05:17:43 pm »
0
Am I the only here who finds speed nerf as a overall buff of heavy lance?
On horse it is much easier to hit anything with slow weapon while with fast weapon you need to be expert in timing. Currently hit of heavy lance lasts 3-3.5 seconds while light lance lasts 1-1.5 sec.
I would understand your concern if you use heavy lance on foot but for horseman heavy lance became much better then it was due to longer hit time and less problems with timing. You just need a bit of time to get used to new speed.
I use normal lance just not to lose my Native shape, otherwise I would use heavy lance which is currently superb for lancer. (may be not in any situation but for open space maps for sure.)

   
« Last Edit: May 11, 2011, 05:20:18 pm by Evgen »
visitors can't see pics , please register or login

Offline Magikarp

  • Baron
  • ****
  • Renown: 130
  • Infamy: 87
  • cRPG Player
  • Gotta splash em all!
    • View Profile
  • Faction: Merciless
  • Game nicks: Magikarp ; Merciless_Charlemagne
  • IRC nick: Magikarp
Re: My thoughts about heavy lance
« Reply #11 on: May 11, 2011, 06:52:01 pm »
0
Am I the only here who finds speed nerf as a overall buff of heavy lance?
On horse it is much easier to hit anything with slow weapon while with fast weapon you need to be expert in timing. Currently hit of heavy lance lasts 3-3.5 seconds while light lance lasts 1-1.5 sec.
I would understand your concern if you use heavy lance on foot but for horseman heavy lance became much better then it was due to longer hit time and less problems with timing. You just need a bit of time to get used to new speed.
I use normal lance just not to lose my Native shape, otherwise I would use heavy lance which is currently superb for lancer. (may be not in any situation but for open space maps for sure.)   
In some ways, yes. You won't be able to use this thing anymore for quick turns and continuous attacks.
Don't mind the fish.

Offline Digglez

  • Duke
  • *******
  • Renown: 573
  • Infamy: 596
  • cRPG Player
  • YOU INCOMPETENT TOH'PAH!
    • View Profile
  • Faction: Northmen
  • Game nicks: GotLander, Hamarr, Digglesan, Black_D34th
Re: My thoughts about heavy lance
« Reply #12 on: May 11, 2011, 07:24:49 pm »
0
does weight of a weapon matter much from horseback?  Because the weights of the lances arent very different, perhaps change weights up a bit.  I would think a HEAVY lance would be 5+ lb, not 1.3

Offline UrLukur

  • Noble
  • **
  • Renown: 13
  • Infamy: 19
  • cRPG Player
    • View Profile
Re: My thoughts about heavy lance
« Reply #13 on: May 12, 2011, 09:32:33 am »
0
If you want clear pattern, what about lowering damage to 26 ? And about decreasing speed to 60 ? This is pattern. Be glad they didn't nerfed it harder, even if it deserve harder nerf.
"Clava curva pie vinco"

Offline Toffi

  • Knight
  • ***
  • Renown: 43
  • Infamy: 9
  • cRPG Player
    • View Profile
  • Faction: Caravan Guild (Honoured Guard)
Re: My thoughts about heavy lance
« Reply #14 on: May 12, 2011, 11:23:32 am »
0
UI'm using the pike now, it's way faster than the heavy lance and has more reach.